Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin learned of the disturbing connection between his own past and that of Moash, with predictably negative results. This week, we rejoin Shallan as she attempts to outwit the Ghostbloods, and has an unnerving encounter with a (presumed) Herald.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 63: A Burning World
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: Sebarial & Kholin warcamps
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash, Talenel
IN WHICH Shallan converses via spanreed with Adolin, who is mysteriously occupied; at the same time, she is attempting to spy on the Ghostbloods who are attempting to spy on her; she finally figures it out and sends Pattern to find the spy; he then carries a Veil illusion and draws the spy out of her hiding place; getting the drop on said spy, Shallan-as-Veil initiates a conversation, resulting in the two proceeding together on the mission rather than Iyatil sneaking along spying on Veil; a little sleight-of-Illusion gets them into Dalinar’s warcamp without Iyatil seeing the means Shallan uses; once they enter the temple grounds, Shallan gets them into the monastery building by claiming that Iyatil is her sister and is doing seriously weird things with this mask gig; Iyatil reluctantly plays along, keeping the ardents occupied while Shallan seeks out her quarry—the man who calls himself Talanel-Elin; he recites his muttered litany about Desolations and loss, bronze and steel, preparations and training; Shallan writes it all down and double-checks it, since he says the same thing every time; when she draws in Stormlight to replace her disguise, however, he comes unglued and grabs her; he seems to recognize her as a Knight Radiant, though he can’t quite put all the pieces together, but then gives up and settles back into his repetitions; as she again attempts to slip out the door, she sees a group coming right to this same cell, and one of them is Amaram.
Quote of the Week
“My name,” the woman said. “Iyatil.”
“I’ve never heard one like it.”
“Unsurprising. Your task today was to investigate a certain new arrival into Dalinar’s camp. We wish to know about this person, and Dalinar’s allegiances are uncertain.”
“He’s loyal to the king and the Throne.”
“Outwardly,” the woman said. “His brother knew things of an extraordinary nature. We are uncertain if Dalinar was told of these things or not, and his interactions with Amaram worry us. This newcomer is linked.”
“Amaram is making maps of the Shattered Plains,” Shallan said. “Why? What is out there that he wants?” And why would he want to return the Voidbringers?
Iyatil didn’t answer.
Somehow I don’t think Iyatil cares about Dalinar’s allegiance to king and throne; she’s obviously more concerned about his possible involvement with one of the “secret society” organizations we’ve been glimpsing. Which makes me wonder… was Gavilar actively committed to the goals of only one group, or was he linked to several of them? These shadowy groups make my head hurt; there are too many of them, with overlapping and contradictory goals. And I don’t know quite enough about any of them… which is a little odd, considering how much more we learned about them in this book.
Commentary
The plot thickens… The Ghostbloods, whoever they are, are now very interested in Dalinar’s “madman”—mostly because of Dalinar’s connections to Gavilar and Amaram. I find it mildly amusing that neither the Ghostbloods nor Dalinar know/believe who the guy is—but his (assumed) identity is far more critical to current events than they seem to realize. The “Sons of Honor,” on the other hand, believe he is who he claims to be, and take it as a sign that their purpose will be fulfilled—but they don’t seem to realize what horrible things may have been unleashed. But… that’s probably a discussion for another time.
There’s a lovely little worldbuilding sidelight slipped in here, as Shallan and Iyatil approach Dalinar’s temple. Apparently, along with prayer and counseling, the ardents provide both trade school and liberal arts education. (I’m using “liberal arts” in the original sense—the arts worthy of a free person, to enable him or her to take an active part in civic life.)
Darkeyes from almost any nahn could come to be taught a trade, exercising their divine Right to Learn, as mandated by the Heralds. Lesser lighteyes came to learn trades as well, and the higher dahns came to learn the arts or progress in their Callings to please the Almighty.
A large population of ardents like this one would have true masters in every art and trade. Perhaps she should come and seek Dalinar’s artists for training.
So (almost*) any person in Alethkar could go to the ardents to learn any trade appropriate to their means and skills, and those of sufficient rank or wealth to not need a trade could still come to be educated in the arts. Visual arts, music, logic, rhetoric, philosophy, astronomy, mathematics—it would have been available in the level and form suitable to the individual’s skills and inclinations. Despite our earlier conversations about Adolin’s lack of education, I’m suspicious that he’s not necessarily so lacking as we thought—or any absence is more attributable to lack of interest than lack of opportunity.
*almost any person… I assume this excludes those which the Copperminds identifies thus:
While those at the lowest level of nahn without the right of travel are essentially serfs tied to the land they are currently on, this is relatively rare. Many more people are at the slightly higher levels of nahn that include the right of travel.
So there are a few whose right of travel is so restricted that they would not be able to seek out the ardentia for training, but it’s not all that common. WoB is that “To be lower ranked than that, something has to have gone wrong for your ancestors and that sort of thing.” I hadn’t really noted this particular tidbit before, but thanks to some of our discussions, I found it very interesting now.
Last but not least is Shallan’s brief interaction with Talenel’Elin. Most of it is the same old stuff he’s repeated every time we’ve seen him, with two exceptions: Early on, she whispers, “Who are you?” and he gives his name and cognomen. Later, as she prepares to resume her ardent disguise, something about it gets his undivided attention—to the point where she summons her Blade—but after a few mutters about “Ishar’s Knights” he gives up and goes back to his bed. Something I just now noticed, though:
Shallan inched forward, and found he was back to whispering the same things as before. She dismissed the Blade.
Mother’s soul …
“Shallan?” Pattern asked. “Shallan, are you mad?”
She shook herself. How much time had passed?
She just blanked out again, didn’t she? Why did I never see that before? So then the question is: did Pattern ask if she was mad because she summoned her Blade, or because she went blank after she dismissed him? And did he use “mad” in the sense of “angry” or “broken in the head”?
Stormwatch
This is the day after Dalinar’s visit to Kaladin; there are 18 days left in the countdown.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
The gnarly tree needs to be mentioned here. Shallan thinks of it as sort of a cross between a dendrolith (literally, treestone) and a dalewillow (valley willow?). In any case, it’s a clever place to hide something when you want to be sure you see who picks it up; they either have to approach slowly, which is rather obvious, or the tree will pull in its fronds, which is also rather obvious. (Of course, if you really don’t want anyone to see what you’re using it for, maybe it’s not such a good choice. Either way you approach, it’s obvious. I don’t think the Ghostbloods really care about that aspect, though; they just want to be sure they see her pick up the instructions, so they can follow her.)
Ars Arcanum
Pattern and Shallan really get their Lightweaving on, this time. It’s fun to watch as they put to use the things they were discovering last time we saw them. They’ve now moved from simply attaching a picture to Pattern, to a sequence of movement allowing him to “walk” the Illusion where others will see it and not be suspicious.
First, though, there was the neat trick with her hideout; arriving in the dark to create an extension of the shed on top of the building—and this time, with a missing brick or two so she can see out. Clever girl. Points, also, for realizing that they were watching for her; fortunately, they don’t know that she has several ways of getting around their precautions. Sending Pattern to find the spy was genius—and a very Shallan thing to do.
She’s getting quite deft at disguises, our girl. Two versions of Veil, a quick switch from Veil to Shallan and back to Veil, the ardent in the monastery, and Veil again. She must have had a whole sleeve-full of infused spheres to fuel all that! This is where I start thinking, “Don’t get cocky, now, there are still dangers! And don’t forget who you’re supposed to be for each scene!”
Shallan took a deep breath and pulled on her hat, breathing out a second image, one that covered her over and transformed her into Veil. The one on Pattern would remain so long as he had Stormlight. That Stormlight drained from him a lot faster than it did from Shallan, though. She didn’t know why.
Do we know why the Stormlight drains from Pattern so much faster than from Shallan? I think I should know, but tonight I’m drawing a blank. Help me out here, friends.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Oh, Iyatil. Shall we start a betting pool on what world she’s from?
She’s obviously baffled and intrigued by Shallan’s—or should I say Veil’s—methods; “I sent a double” can cover Pattern-Veil’s trip to the cache, but getting into the Kholin warcamp isn’t so easily explained. (Shallan is wise not to try, and lucky that her persona would be disinclined to share such secrets.) So here’s my big question: if Iyatil found out what Shallan was doing, would she be more interested in the Lightweaving itself, or in how to use it to accomplish her goals here on Roshar?
We know she’s a world-hopper; what we don’t know is why she’s here, why she’s teaching Mraize, whether she’s part of one of the inter-world organizations we (sort of) know about, which one, and what their ultimate goals are.
“Why the mask?” Shallan asked, leaning forward. “What does it mean? Why do you hide?”
“I have many times asked myself,” Iyatil said, “why those of you here go about so brazenly with features exposed to all who would see them. My mask reserves my self. Besides, it gives me the ability to adapt.”
Hmmm…
It disturbs me to know that it will be many, many years before Brandon gets enough of the Cosmere story out there to answer this kind of question. I’m not getting any younger, here, you know! Well, some answers will come sooner than others, I suppose.
Heraldic Symbolism
Shalash and Talenel are here for fairly obvious reasons: Shalash, for her Lightweaver-in-training and all the clever Illusions being wrought; and Talenel for, well, himself. I know Brandon’s been a bit cagey about whether or not this person really is Taln, but I’m going to assume that he is, at least until I see textual evidence that he isn’t. It’s just easier that way.
I’m guessing that the title “A Burning World” is something to do with the reality that Taln has known for the last 4500 years? That, or what he expects to be happening on Roshar in the near future.
Shipping Wars
Awww, they’re texting!! Isn’t that sweet? Although Shallan is just a little too good at lying to her betrothed, she could hardly tell him what she’s really doing at this point. Still, they’re awfully cute. The whole thing made me grin—especially the part where he has to have an ardent to do the reading and writing for him, and teases the ardent in the process.
She’s clearly new to the courting game (well, we know she is! duh!); she’s bemused that Adolin seems so surprised at her lack of jealousy. I find it amusing that his reputation is largely what makes the women he’s courted so wary of any attention he pays anyone else—but at the same time, their jealousy is also part of what destroys any real relationship that could have otherwise developed. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I love the Shallan-Adolin ship—she’s a perfect, refreshing change from everything he’s known before. She’s willing to actually trust him.
Perhaps she should cling more firmly, but the thought of it nauseated her. Such behavior reminded her of Father, holding so tightly to everything that he eventually broke it all.
… No, Father’s way was not right. If she wanted to keep Adolin, she had to try something far more difficult than just clinging to him. She’d have to be so irresistible that he didn’t want to let go.
Way to go, girl! (It does remind me of “She’d have to rely, instead, upon her feminine wiles. She wished she knew if she had any.” Poor girl.)
Incidentally, a couple of small bombshells are slipped in here, ready to explode downstream. Adolin is bored; he can’t leave his current location, but he could have a visitor. Heh. I wonder where he is! Also, Dalinar is feeling much better now, thank you… Just a head cold or something, you know? Nothing to worry about, all back to normal. Ya, shurr, you betcha.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Kaladin continues to be frustrated in prison, while Shallan resolves this chapter’s cliffhanger.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. What a ride!
I have difficulty in envisaging how the Pattern anchored walking Veil illusion is supposed to work. How does Pattern go from image to image while creating the illusion of Veil walking, reaching into the tree, and retrieving the written instructions. He hardly has a presence in the physical world so that carrying a sheaf of drawings would seem to be unlikely. However, that very limited presence in the physical world probably underlies why he doesn’t retain Stormlight well. Stormlight is meant to be contained by appropriate physical objects or entities.
Another mystery is Shallan’s associating her Pattern spren-blade with ‘mother’s soul’. Previously, she appeared to assume that the soul was in her father’s strongbox, and does so later in Urithiru in the vision that Pattern produces. Pattern is the one who explains that the blade is not ‘mother’s soul’ but that which took it. Yet, here she has already made the association. Perhaps her blanking out removed that association from her consciousness.
As to the Vorin system of adult education, it seems very admirable and may be applicable even to the lowest rungs of society. Even a small town as Hearthstone had a lord and ardents. Presumably, even the serfs could communicate with and learn from the local ardents. The right of travel appears to be confined to the highest 2 levels for Darkeyes since Lirin tells the boy Kaladin that his grandparents had worked hard to bring them up to level 2 where they had freedom of travel. I assume that he was referring to an elevation of 1 or 2 ranks and that there were many ranks for the Darkeyes akin to the 10 ranks for Lighteyes.
It would be interesting to know if Shallan ever visited Adolin while he was at the prison. We don’t see it of course as that would give the surprise away. She must have had time on at least one day, surely?
But yes, their “texting” is cute, as is their courting in general. However, I think when Shallan’s more analytical side comes out that some readers find it a bit… cold? Even though when she’s actually there with him her brain is sometimes reduced to “curry paste”. I see Shallan as someone who can view people both very abstractly and very concretely, depending on the situation. Before she met Jasnah, Shallan had particular expectations but once she got to know Jasnah she understood her enough and could emphasise with her enough that she found it almost impossible to carry out her original plot to steal Jasnah’s Soulcaster – if not for her anger at Jasnah’s killing of the robbers, she might never have done it. With Adolin, all her goals and desires align – she really does like him personally and also has multiple practical reasons to continue and deepen the relationship. It would be interesting to consider how different she would be if her goals and desires didn’t align. Anyway, she can analyse herself, Adolin and their relationship abstractly and reason about it. It’s very interesting to see a character approach a relationship like this – I find it very refreshing.
One thing Iyatil asks Shallan is “Are you the hunter, or are you the quarry?”. Mraize seems to have a similar outlook. Is that just Iyatil and Mraize? I don’t think so. It feels more like part of the philosophy of the Ghostbloods – hunt or be hunted (kill or be killed).
Another side note: Tyn had taught Shallan various concepts about tricking people, both visually and mentally – eg cause a distraction when hiding an action. Shallan applies that concept here to good effect. She makes a good pupil – she also applies Jasnah’s teachings well. I wonder how much more knowledge and skills she is going to absorb. I also think the idea for making Iyatil feign sickness came from when Tyn made Shallan pretend to be a Horneater.
Shallan’s meeting with Taln very much feels like a setup for later books. I wonder what events/knowledge will lead to Shallan guessing that he could be a Herald. There’s two things I can think of for now – I presume she’ll know about the Honorblade that Kaladin gains at the end of the book, which should conflict enough with Vorin theology and recorded history to get her thinking. The second is Amaram kidnapping Taln – that should also get her thinking, when she finds out about it.
Taln’s reaction to Shallan’s Lightweaving is very interesting. “Ishar’s Knights” – this matches the quote from 42 from the in-world Words of Radiance about Ishar (aka Ishi’Elin) starting them. Also, implies that the concept had developed over time and had then become realised for thousands of years – I wonder if that time frame is up to the Last Desolation or up to the Recreance.
Regarding Shallan going blank, I’m not sure if I noticed that on my first read or not. It’s not particularly subtle. As for Pattern’s question, I’m not 100% certain what sense he’s asking it in but since the word had most recently been referred to in the sense of being broken and he can definitely distinguish between “angry” mad and other types I do think he meant in the broken sense. Either way, I’m pretty sure Shallan’s confirmation is basically her saying “yes, I’ve got a few screws loose, I realised that long ago” since she says it so matter-of-factly.
Shallan thinks that Iyatil does not know how Shallan got them into camp. But I am not so sure. I think that Iyatil does know she is Lightweaving. She is a world hopper. I think that Iyatil can recognize when somebody Invests. The same way Wit does. I think it is Iyatil who first clued Mraize onto the fact of what Shallan’s actions at the end of WoR really meant (i.e., she can Invest).
By the way, what is the difference between Suregebinding and Investing?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I really hope we get more from Taln and that he really is Talenel’Elin Herald of War.
If my understanding of the Oathpact is correct (10 people sacrificed themselves to torture and while that lasted the world could not be invaded by Odium. Basically they took on his hate and the world was safe. When they finally gave up, a Deoslation happened, and then the battle and if they won the battle the cycle began anew with the torture and things) he basically held Odium at bay, alone, for 3500 years. Of course he came back a little nuts. But think of the strength of character that took. I’d love top read more about it.
As far as this chapter goes, I love to see Shallan’s brains in action, I tend to like intelligence in my heroes more than physical prowess. Which is why I like Kaladin so much, he is both intelligent and martially inclined.
And of course, more on investiture and how different types interact, maybe Iyatil came from the same world where Shadows for Silence takes place, that seem to deal with Hunters / Prey dynamics a lot.
Pattern doesn’t get the message from the tree, Shallan and Iyatil later get it together.
Andrew @3 – Surgebinding is the Rosharan version of Investing, as I understand it. On Nalthis, Investiture means Breath; on Scadrial, Investing happens through Allomancy, Feruchemy, or Hemalurgy. Etc. “Investiture” is the Cosmere-level term for “using the magics” – and then each magic system has its own form.
Whether or not Iyatil can tell when someone is using Investiture… we don’t know. I don’t think you can assume it’s a given for all worldhoppers. Hoid has a few extras up his sleeve, so applying his skills with a broad brush is dicey at best. Personally, I don’t think she can tell – but we don’t know.
I like the little “this is gonna suck” expression we get from Iyatil in this chapter.
And to answer your question, Andrew, Investing is when you charge yourself with magical energy, whereas Surgebinding is utilizing that energy to bind a Surge. So Kaladin is Investing when he inhales the Light, and then Surgebinding when he uses that Light to make a Lashing.
Wetlandernw @6 and ReaderAt20146 @7: Thank you for answering my question.
Wetlandernw. IMO, this chapter provided us with the grossest mental picture in the book: when Pattern describes the manner in which one of the patients writes messages. When I first read this chapter, it took me days to wipe that image from my mind.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Aaaah I loved the texting scene… texting teenagers in a fantasy book: we’ve got to love it. It is adorable how either one of them has any clue as to how to proceed within their relationship. Having Adolin mentioned he was using a male ardent to scribe for him was amusing, but also highlighted one important aspect of his courtships: his reputation. Many of Shallan’s actions throughout the book with respect to Adolin are linked to his reputation: she expects him to be something he just isn’t. It makes us wonder how many girls rejected Adolin simply because he side-looked for the fraction of a second as another girl without even intending to?
For my part, I have a side theory as to why poor Adolin literally screws up in all of his relationships… Oh it is his fault, most of time, but as Wit said: “I sincerely do not know how you manage to get into those situations”. Coming from Wit or all people, it has to mean something.
For the rest, thanks for putting this additional info concerning the Ardentia in order to mirror one of our former discussion. So education is available, but not mandatory and without reading I am still dubious as to how much you can learn. It seems obvious to me some people would struggle to call it a learning without visual support, probably because I am one of these people… without a drawing, I am nearly useless. Anyway. I hope some of Adolin’s future arc will involve him figuring out the value of education. He sorely needs it.
I had also wondered in that chapter how far down the base Shallan would be willing to go to solidify her grip on Adolin? And I will admit there is a part of me who wondered if Iyatil wouldn’t be the one to explain to her a thing or two… but I may be getting carried away here. Feel free to ignore.
(Hums 38 Special’s “Hold on Loosely” as sometimes it really fits the dynamic of Adolin and Shallan’s relationship).
This is a nice little chapter. Shallan’s making good progress, we got to see the supposed Herald (and I agree on considering him to be Talenel’Elin for now, it just keeps it simpler even if maybe something funky is going on there), and Iyatil is interesting from what little we see of her.
The way Iyatil mentions her mask reminds me of conversations I would hear about the burqa/niqaab: I wonder if maybe Iyatil comes from a culture with other similarities to Islamic cultures?
On the matter of the ardentia and education, I take what Shallan says with a grain of salt: she’s describing how it’s supposed to work, but I think it’d be interesting to see how well it does work in practice. Kaladin is clearly more an aberration than the commonality, but with what we’ve seen of the Alethi…yeah I don’t 100% trust it.
Either that or maybe I’m just paranoid about stuff like this after book 1 and the Taravangian reveal. Can’t even trust hospitals, schools must be corrupt as well!
I suspect schools are indeed corrupted and most teaching is oriented towards promoting Vorinism which would explain young Renarin’s obsession with soldering… He was brainwashed by their incessant talk.
Iyatil is, of course, an Epic. Masks are a traditional supervillain thing, after all :-)
Regarding the special day this chapter is set in: this feels more like an open day where pupils can come to the teachers to learn whatever they like. The hints I see from other chapters suggest that it’s normally the ardents who go to the pupils, for the Darkeyes at least, probably focusing on their specific Callings. I would guess that for most Darkeyes, they mostly need to focus on getting by and concentrate on their main living, so if they’re trying to learn new skills it would probably either be a hobby or long-term plan to expand skills. I suspect that overall the effect on society is fairly small since we haven’t seen any actual examples of this being used to benefit people but who knows, maybe we’ll see a more in-depth example later. It’s certainly not general education but it’s a lot better than nothing. Could make a good question to ask Brandon about this aspect of the ardentia.
Could Iyatil sense Shallan doing Lightweaving? Well, I see no theoretical reason why not. Hoid seemed to be able to tell very quickly what Shallan was on their first meeting and “Darkness” seemed to be able to sense Lift gathering/manipulating Stormlight. The question is, what powers does Iyatil have? She’s from an organisation that is quite possibly spread across multiple worlds and has travelled them herself. But, sensor types seem relatively rare in the Cosmere. Also, Iyatil would almost certainly never have seen Lightweaving before or sensed it so even if she felt something she’s unlikely to have known what it was. I think Mraize/Iytail have read enough background details to figure out what Shallan is likely to be based what she’s done – her art would have been a big give-away. I don’t get any sense that Iyatil figured out anything during their time together though it certainly got her thinking.
Regarding Taln. It could be that Brandon is just trolling us about whether he is the real Taln or not but I think he’s at least one of the Heralds and has Taln’s body. It’s possible that the real Taln returned to Roshar some time ago (eg 5 years, when the spren started returning) and another Herald found him and went to the Nightwatcher to cure him – and the curse was to become Taln. That seems plausible but we might have to wait a long time to find out for sure.
scmof2814 @@@@@ 12 – I don’t think the Reckoners series is part of the cosmere. I might be wrong though.
I think Taln really is Talenel’Elin Herald of War because he has some very specific knowledge about what happens prior to a desolation i.e. which herald taught what, he recognizes what Shallan does and knows which order she is basically from which is something she didn’t even know at first, and he’s got one of the Oathblades. So… it’d be pretty unlikely he’s a fake in my humble opinion. Not impossible, few things are in an epic fantasy series, but pretty unlikely.
@3 I think some skills/magic systems might have a way to detect investiture. But maybe not. With allomancy they can use bronze to sense if someone else is using allomany but I’ve never seen anything to indicate it detects feruchemy or even hemalurgy so I’m not sure a world hopper burning bronze would detect investiture other than allomancy. Also, I’m not sure that Wit can detect if someone is investing or invested at the moment. Why would he asks Shallan questions about whether orbs lose their light around her and etc. if he could detect it more accurately? I think he’s probably just very good at noticing when someone is able to do supernatural things and the same could be true of Iyatil. That being said are we 100% sure that Iyatil can invest and has magical abilities? Even if she’s from another world I wouldn’t rule out the potential of another world hopper having brought her along rather than her necessarily being able to navigate worlds on her own. I’d say it’s good odds she has some magic up her sleeve but not necessarily.
@12+14 you are correct that the Reckoners series isn’t part of the Cosmere, but it is a funny idea and I think 12 meant it as a joke :)
Re: Iyatil’s homeworld: There’s a theory floating around on the Shard that her homeworld is Scadrial. Specifically, that she’s a kandra, and uses the mask as a default identity. Of course, I don’t believe the mask tradition has been seen anywhere in the cosmere yet.
sheilagh @14: According to WoB, those worlds that are recognizable variations of Earth are not in the Cosmere.
Hmm. I really should go over to the black hole 17th Shard and see what the theorists are proposing about Iyatil. Should provide some serious entertainment.
So, yea, the one thing that always seemed completely implausible to me re: Adolin is the notion that tons of young women would have broken up with him due to his roving eye or whatever. This is very much a society where marriage is in large part a matter of advantage for the people and families involved. Adolin is a High Prince’s heir, young, fit and promising. _He_ may have been given the (rare ?) freedom to pick whomever he liked, but families of eligible young women would have forcefully encouraged them to snag him at any cost. So, I really don’t think it believable that Shallan would have been the only one who’d give him some slack or try to make herself irresistible to him. Oh, well, their courtship is fun enough that I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but it is a bit of a strain.
And speaking of ardents teaching trades – IIRC there is no mention of those in Hearthstone doing so. Poor Tien certainly could have profited from such tuition, if it had been available. In fact, now that I think about it, Lirin and Hesina were woefully remiss where planning for Tien’s future was concerned. I mean, iRL apprenticeships started between 7 and 10 years of age before some ammount of prior schooling became expected/mandatory, which is moot among the male Alethi, Tien was 13 and still not properly learning a trade. His not-really-apprenticeship to the woodworker was quite new at the time he was drafted, and they certainly had every chance to secure him a proper apprenticeship before Wistiow’s death. It is OK to have great plans for the most promising child, but did they have to neglect Tien’s prospects so?
So, I imagine that those teaching/training temples are mainly a large city affair, and there may be further de-facto restrictions that Shallan is unaware of, to keep the number of people learning manageable and more limited to those likely to monetarily support the ardentia. Of course, lower-caste Darkeyes would find it difficult to forego earning money for however long it would take them to learn a new skill in the first place, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more obstacles still. In any case, sending Kaladin to learn to the closest temple if Karabrath didn’t pan out never appeared to be a plan B for his parents.
@12 – funny. I don’t think they remain Epics outside of the special light.
@15 already addressed the Cosmere issue. Indeed, any book Sanderson writes that are on a variant of Earth, are not Cosmere. Which includes all his currently published YA books. It also covers the WoT – not Cosmere.
@10: Thanks, now I have that ear worm stuck. Anyone who doesn’t know the song, click away. :-D
One draw back of going to school (for poorer people) would be the ability to have free time. The ardents are there to teach. But if you have to spend all your time working, you have no time to learn. Thus why in the US there was not a real public education system until the child labor laws were enacted.
@1
Re: Mother’s soul
I always read it as the Shardblade is what she calls mother’s soul. Because the Shardblade severs the soul, I figured that young Shallan thought that the blade held her mother’s soul somehow and when the blade was placed in the strong box she told herself that it was her mother’s soul in the box, if that makes sense. I also get the feeling that when Shallan used the Shardblade against he mother might have been the first time she called the blade forward.
@19: I had wondered to why, in a society where most marriages are arranged and made to gain political advantages, nobody impose on their daughter to do their very best to snatch Adolin… The fact all girls practically dropped him after what seems to be very few dates implies something else was at work. I have come to suspect Adolin’s screw ups, when it comes to relationships, were so massive no Brightlord saw fit to further encourage their daughters to make it work. My thoughts are Adolin is the one who ruined most of his courtships. It is clear he seems unfitted for most high ranked young girls we have currently met, but I had to wonder why he seem to systematically “destroy” all of his chances the second the relationship starts to evolve… His own words are telling: “It always goes well, in the beginning.”. So what happens after the first few dates? What happens when the courtships starts to move into a more comfortable pace, into something more solid? What happens when Mashala (I think it was her name) asked to be taken to the battlefield?
Adolin gets cold feet and he unconsciously ruins it: in a spectacular way. I have given a try to many ideas as to why: I have blamed society, the girls, the pressure to marry he has, his immaturity… but what if he is just afraid to emotionally involve himself with another person? What if his serial dater behavior hides something else, a fear of rejection or abandon? He wants a relationship, but he can’t commit, not because he does not want to, but because he is just too afraid to be hurt. Again.
Just an idea to ponder on.
I have to agree with you about Tien. It has bothered me as well to see Lirin appear so much more involved with Kaladin’s future then he was with Tien. He was willing to steal to secure Kaladin a future he wished he had have himself, but he was apparently not ready to secure Tien a worthy apprenticeship… Roshone did have a point when he sent Tien to war: the town does not need a third carpenter’s apprentice. It is just too small for so many carpenters which means Tien had no future in Heartstone, but strangely his parents did not see fit to try to figure out what he may be doing.
It is obvious to me Kaladin was the favored son and Tien was the redundant one. Sad.
Another reason that Adolin’s relationship’s do not work is that marrying him would mean tying the daughter’s family with house Kholin. By the time of the events in WoK, Dalinar did not have the best reputation.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Except Adolin started courting girls years before Dalinar’s reputation started to fall… His issues aren’t new: he’s likely had them since he was 16.
It explains why girls may not want to be seen with him NOW, but it does not explain why they weren’t interested BEFORE.
@many I believe the ardentia would travel out to the farms yearly to see of anyone had an ability something to do with soulcasters I think (been a while) I think while they were there they instructed on techniques and such. I also remember it being mentioned about the ardents elevating people in there chosen calling.
On the tien note I believe they wanted to train him to be a surgeon also but since he had an issue with blood, and was small for his age they held off apprenticeship with him till he got older. I also got the impression he had been with the woodworkers for about 3 years before getting sent to war, could be wrong.
I just happened to be reading Mistborn during the same time span that I was listening to this chapter on audiobook. It struck me that Brandon described Iyatil as sitting with her legs tucked beneath her, which was also used to describe Vin in Mistborn. A quick search on my Nook revealed some variation of “legs tucked” to describe Vin at least three times in Mistborn. However, it is also used once in Words of Radiance to describe Shallan. I didn’t search any other texts, but that might reveal if this is unique to these characters, or a more common Sanderson-ism. Even if it is, it might tell us something about the kind of person Brandon sees Iyatil as.
@22 – I think you may be right. . . . my mind was running along similar lines. I also wondered if Adolin simply feels that the relationships are too unilateral; the women coming to him for the prestige, wealth, etc., which means he really feels no true genuine connection or commitment from them. Even if they cared nothing for him as a person, they would not risk any sort of waywardness given his power and riches. He, however, might always be searching elsewhere for something to fulfill his need for beauty, sincerity, etc. . While Shallan initiated the relationship for largely selfish reasons, she has a sincerity and an innocence/disregard for courtly stiffness which appeals to Adolin. Her family situation, etc. initially gives her even more to gain than Adolin’s other courtiers, but she develops the beginnings of a commitment to him and then becomes a Radiant, which doubtless cements her financial stability and ensures that any future dedication to Adolin is for purely relational purposes, love, etc. . . . . . . . . . . . . Kind of optimistic for Adolin’s character, and it has a few holes and seemed to ramble on, but it also gives hope for their relationship.
I seem to recall on Adolin’s first date with Shallan, she noticed his roving eye as he turned to stare at the waitress’ backside. Though it seems she took it as amusing at the time.
@@@@@ 24 Gepeto
I’m probably the least qualified person you could possibly find to guess what Adolin’s dating short comings might be, but I dunno…maybe he’s just a bad kisser?
@27: What ticks me if the fact he unconsciously ruins them… Each and every time he approached the courtship with the renewed desire to make it work, but it never last. Soon or later, he messes up. Sure, he looks up at other girls, but any able man with half of a brain knows ogling another girl is sure not going to get him a second date. It is impossible he does not know that and yet he does it which makes me think he is not truly aware of his behavior. It is more of a reflex…
The problem is he wants those relationships… and he keeps trying. He hasn’t discouraged himself yet. There is much to say about individual who repetitively fail at relationships. There is a pattern: first attraction, date, the idea it may actually work, Adolin screws up.
I growing more and more convinced it is not just the girls who are the problem. It is him.
My suspicions is things happened differently with Shallan because she disarmed him early on. She broke the script and he was forced to improvise. His reflexes were nullified and he allowed himself to do what he never did before: opening-up and falling in love, but we see it in his last thoughts… He is starting to do it, he is doubting…
Who bets Adolin will screw it with Shallan early in book 3?
@29 ROFL. Based on his reaction to Shallan’s advances, I’d say Adolin did not kiss many girls in the past. Men with experience do not blush when they are near a pretty girl… nor do they act as if they were scared of her.
@29 and 30: I actually thought that might be it as well, or to be more precise, that Adolin has not kissed much at all (so he lacks practice). While he has a roving eye, on the physical side Adolin seems pretty reticent on the displays of affection. Part of that is being Alethi, of course, but I get the feeling even with that in consideration Adolin is physically reserved, and Shallan was probably the first girl willing to push him along in that regard as Veden culture is less prudish anyways.
As for book 3 and how Adolin and Shallan’s relationship fares…I have no idea. Both Adolin and Shallan get bombshells dropped on them in that last part which could either help or hinder them and their relationship, and it’s hard to say which way the story will go.
Gepetto, wcarter and others – Maybe, Adolin has not found “The One.” That is why his dating habits before Shallan had a lot of things to be desired. This sounds so romcom but quite frankly, it is what looks like from a romance junkie’s point of view. Ha! Ha! I’m a fantasy fan first and foremost. But, I’m also a romantic.
Seriously though, from the Alethi point of view, Adolin’s dating habits before Shallan were atrocious. Someone here mentioned that in a society like the Alethi wherein marriage to the right family and rank is a way to advance, then how come no one had latched on to him.
Actually, there were many but Adolin just sabotages everything. The main reason why he always has someone he is courting is because women are throwing themselves at him all the time. The reason we already know. Adolin is a prince and an heir to a princedom and third in line for the throne of Alethkar. Since Elhokar is married and Dalinar is too old, Adolin is the only currency available to young women of a certain rank to make sure that they stay within the rank they were born in.
We also have to remember that it was Jasnah and Navani who arranged the marriage. Navani was the one who actually had the causal written with Dalinar’s agreement. Adolin of course was consulted and he agreed also.
To both Adolin and Shallan, the marriage causal was theoretical in the beginning. That is, until they met and realized that they were attracted to each other. Shallan found Adolin’s roving eyes amusing in the beginning and decided early on that she would not be the clingy type because of her father actually worked for her beautifully.
Shallan’s nonchalance about his wondering eyes made Adolin look beyond the causal and seriously consider Shallan as a true contender for his heart. I know that sounded so chauvinistic, but that’s just the way it went for Adolin in my eyes.
Gepetto – you are right. SA3 will find Shallan and Adolin in a quandary. Both were thrown into a loop in the ending. We can discuss that area when we get there. Just let me put in here that FINALLY, Adolin found himself truly at a disadvantaged when it comes to a relationship.
As for Adolin not being a good kisser, I believe he is not a good kisser. Little experience. And I think he still holds his V card. LOL
Just my thoughts.
@32: I think there is more to Adolin’s screw ups then him not having found “the One”. He has no idea what love is, so one girl or another, I figured he could have gone forward with marriage providing he managed to develop a decent relationship with either one, but he just can’t. He sabotages them. Even Hoid wonders how in the world he manages to screw up so spectacularly on such a steady basis.
Always the same pattern, at first it works brilliantly: the girl is pretty and nice, they are holding hands, they have pleasant moments, but then it starts to irrevocably move forward and… Adolin screws up. He doesn’t even realize he does it, he does not even intend to, but his instincts are stronger than him. Tyn said he was engaged once, what happened to break an engagement? I suspect Adolin did a massive faux pas there… it likely was going well, so why? If he engaged himself to this girl, then he must have “like her” to a certain extend, so what happened?
He got scared.
Just as he is scared of developing lasting relationships with his peers, just as he safeguards his inner self from others.
So my thoughts are it isn’t just the fact he hasn’t find the right girl (I mean in the dozen and dozen of girls he dated, surely there was a few decent ones in there.), he’s got problems with relationships and they run deep as they seem to take part of an unconscious mechanism.
I have a theory as to why, but it is horribly unpopular. The idea Adolin may be something else than the arrogant cocky reckless handsome prince who never had to raise one finger for anything in this life, who had everything come his way easily is so deeply rooted within many reader’s psyche, the thought he could have issues do not settle well. Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin are all broken, it is impossible Adolin may have “problems” of his own whom may not have panned out into a complete breakdown, but they remain… problems.
It also explain why he loves the idea of the causal: it removes him from the pressure to make it work. It removes him from the pressure to have to make a choice. He doesn’t have any: marry that girl. He likes that mostly because, deep down, he knows he is going to screw it up. Sadly, Dalinar made it so he has the choice to back down, so I bet he will. Just as he has always done.
Anyway, if I am right, his defense mechanisms are about to kick in with Shallan… He’ll screw it up. She is getting too close.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Shallan was the first girl he ever kissed… Seems unlikely, but I still would not surprised by it.
@31: I too think Adolin is more reserved than the average Alethi. I mean, they have brothels, so they can’t be that prude… It goes back to my discussion: Adolin is fearful of developing relationship with people.
Fear, I think, is a large part of Adolin as a character, but because it does not express itself in battle situations, it gets overlooked.
My 3rd attempt to post. Firefox and Tor don’t seem to like each other.
I agree that Adolin is still carrying the V card. He is the heir to the High prince. Creating bastard children would not go well with the family. Yes, it may be common in society but Dalinar is not your average Dad. He does not seem to have much actual sexual experience, more the imagining of his peers.
I dearly want him and Shallan to stay together but Kaladin is more the “HERO” of the story with his fighting skills and dark brooding manner. Usually I would be rooting for the poor guy fighting his way to glory but Adolin seems like he needs Shallan so much more.
Hmm, Adolin’s relationships…
If he was a house, it would be one with a large and beautiful garden with plenty of space to entertain guests, who would always be welcome, but rarely would anyone actually get to go inside the house itself and then only as far as the rooms dedicated to entertaining guests. Or to put it less poetically, he has no problem getting closer to people and enjoys it but only up to a point.
Probably something to do with his mother and/or first romantic interest left him like this and now he can’t break out of the pattern even though he wants to. He doesn’t want his relationships to fail but it keeps on happening. This eventually makes him frustrated and desperate enough to gladly accept the causal and hope it works out.
Why hasn’t any other girl managed to do what Shallan has done? I think there’s a couple of reasons. One is the society, since the Alethi put a lot of emphasis on appearances which limits how aggressive the girls can be without dishonouring themselves and their families – Shallan has much less to lose and is less concerned about propriety (or at least Alethi propriety).
I think that Adolin is likely to not allow himself to be in too private a situation with the girls and even with Shallan I think there’s only one case when they’re truly alone. Consider how Adolin treated the prostitute – he declined politely but firmly and I suspect he might have used that line before on one or two girls who seriously tried to seduce him physically. So in short, Adolin is careful enough that it’s very hard for any girl to “trap” him. I wouldn’t be surprised if those are the types he dumps very quickly while it’s normally the girls who dump him after they get fed up with his behaviour. Shallan’s quick little kiss in public (due in a few more chapters) is probably fairly effective in this regard, though I’ve no idea if she knew that.
One thing I thought of recently is that I suspect a lot of his more recent girlfriends were not serious about him at all – his reputation has probably gotten to the point where a lot of the girls can treat it more like a game. So there’s probably no real harm for them to be approached by him and it’s probably a certain amount of bragging rights – better to be picked than ignored, right? And you could always hit the jackpot.
The other thing in Shallan’s favour is that she’s not remotely like a typical Alethi – everything about her is new and fresh. Shallan notices that Adolin was surprised she doesn’t get jealous, which almost certainly means that is a very rare reaction from previous girlfriends – I wonder if that encouraged him to let his eyes wander more or made him more self-conscious?
So anyway… I don’t think Adolin found anything in Shallan to dislike or be off-putting… until he found out she was a Radiant.
goddessIMHO @34 – Yes, just like you, I usually root for the poor guy who makes things happen. But, in this case, though Kaladin is the obvious hero, Adolin has been my favorite. Don’t get me wrong, I like Kaladin. It’s just that, I’m Adolin’s girl. LOL
ChrisRijk @35 – Nice analogy about the house. And good analysis about Adolin and his relationships. I like the bragging rights that Adolin dated them. LOL
Gepeto @33 I am still of the opinion that just like Leonardo di Caprio, Adolin is serial dating because he has not found THE ONE, that is until Shallan came along. Yes, you are right, that there must be several women in Alethkar who are worthy of being his wife. But, not one of them is the right one. It’s because by definition, “THE ONE” is it. Everyone else pales by comparison.
Adolin does not need to hurry. He is only 23. He does not need to settle for anyone. The right person will come along. And somehow, I believe that Dalinar has something to do with it.
Since we have to wait for SA3 to find out what happened to Dalinar and Sshhshshh, I believe that though Dalinar was so besotted with Navani, he believes that Sshhshhhssh was the proper bride for him. And, Sshhshhshh gave him two beautiful boys. the heir and the spare.
Somehow, this made me think of Princess Diana and Prince Charles. Camila has always been THE ONE for Prince Charles if we draw conclusions from current events. Yet, unlike Prince Charles, Dalinar stayed true to Sshsshhssh. We know that even without SA3.
Now, the only question in my mind is, did Adolin see his parents marriage so ideal that he wanted something like that for himself? It seems that Dalinar and Sshsshshh were truly suited because Navani commented on it.
If that is the case, then it is not surprising that Adolin wants to find true love and not settle.
I know, that sounds so romcom, but what can I say? I’m a romantic. :-)
@34: Alright, V card. I get it. I didn’t understand yesterday… Stupid me, but yes I agree, Adolin definitely has his V card. Impossible he doesn’t.
For the rest, something strange happened to me while reading WoR… WoK started up as the classic story of a “farmboy” finding himself new powers, the underdog managing to rise in station, the beaten dark moody hero who proves them all wrong… All fantasy stories start with the same premise. An effective classic. However, something weird happened to me as I was reading WoR…
I got tired of that story. I loved it while I read it, but by the end of the book (in part 4 actually), I started to wish for something else.. I realized I had grown more attached to this side character than the hero. So yes, I essentially agree the “underdog dark moody hero” should, by all rights, get the girl. He always does now doesn’t he?
Except I don’t want him to. Not this time. This time, I want the other guy to succeed. I am even bolder as I wish for the other guy to grow in importance, to get a larger role in the story because I genuinely am more interested in reading about him than the hero. I just find him more interesting, more engaging, more endearing, more everything than the dark moody hero I have read so often about. I like him, but I feel I have read his story before, so now I wish to read another story.
So yeah, I hope Shallan will end up with Adolin, but a large part of me believes he won’t simply because the classic trope demands it and Stormlight Archive is a very classic story. I agree Adolin needs Shallan much more than Kaladin, but he isn’t the hero, so who cares about what a side character needs? Brandon always gives his hero a love interest… Always. Adolin isn’t his hero, Kaladin is. So….
@35: I personally think everything about Adolin has to do with his mother… If we think about it for a few seconds, she was the only successful relationship he ever had with a woman (clues we have say he was very close to her) and she died when he was at a difficult age. In other words, she abandon him. She left him. And it hurt.
As a result, adult Adolin has much issues emotionally engaging himself with new people for fear of being hurt, again. Each time a girl gets close, the fear of abandonment kicks in and he backs out by screwing it up. He is quite creative in how he messes up: completely hiding the fact he’s the one who wants out. He also brags out loud how he does not care (this is the tale he told Renarin), he is not affected by it, except he is.
I also suspect “dating Adolin” has become a game throughout the warcamps as any new comer rapidly seek to call on him. Most of the girls likely never were interested in him, but seducing him is a game they all seem to play. Dalinar finally saw through it and cut it short.
@36: There may be some of “I haven’t found the One” in Adolin’s behavior, but I don’t believe it is the factor who makes all his relationships fail. If it were, he would be more obvious: he’d be the one to break it up, rapidly, saying he just doesn’t feel it. He wouldn’t be a massive screw up, he wouldn’t wonder why all his relationships fail. There’s one thing to be said about the man who is looking for the “right one” and it’s is he’s usually quite open about up, quite forthcoming… Adolin just does not have the portrayal of a deep romantic who hasn’t found the right person: he is a lost very inexperienced man who carries the opposite reputation while failing to understand why girls keep breaking up with him.
He wants each and every relationships to work and never he thinks in terms of “she was not right for me”. He always reflects back on terms “I don’t know what I did wrong this time” or “I swear it isn’t my fault this time, I did nothing wrong.”. These aren’t the right thoughts, IMO, to support the idea he is merely looking for the right girl.
I thus maintain my position: Adolin screws up because he is afraid to develop lasting relationships with women due to an unconscious fear they will later abandon him. And yes, I think it started up with his mother’s death. I have found a few interesting link about attachment in adult relationships on the Internet and while it does not make for conclusive arguments, it sounded so much like Adolin I couldn’t help but to make the link.
Also, the fact he only is 23 and still has time is a valid thing to say if he were in our world. He isn’t. We, the readers, think Adolin is very young and still has plenty of time to find himself a wife, but in their world he is very old to not be married. He is considered an old bachelor, one they have nearly lost all hope for. He does not have time. Desolation is kicking in… the death toll is going to increase… Alethi marry young, why?
To have time to make children before they are killed in the Desolation.
It’s hard to analyse Adolin’s relationships due to the lack of info, which leads to lots of speculation. Why do they fail? We’ve only seen snapshots and not followed an example from beginning to end. We know he has a roving eye and doesn’t necessarily stick to one girl at a time. He seems to feel that it’s normally his fault. Apparently he might have gotten as far as being engaged once, according to Tyn. Adolin himself doesn’t understand so it’s clearly not something he’s doing intentionally.
I’d be surprised if Adolin’s mother’s death had no lasting effect on him. He carries a memento of her around still, though we don’t see him actively thinking of her – too much pain so he avoids it but can’t let go either? But maybe it’s not the only thing – for example, if he really did get properly engaged once and it went horribly wrong then that could have made things worse.
Dalinar and Galivar were at various points both considered epitomes of Alethi men though in rather different ways. Galivar started straying from that ideal modern Alethi male path late in life and his death pushed Dalinar to reform himself and follow a similar path. I’d guess that Dalinar went through several phases in life. Early on, more like a battle addicted gang leader. After losing Navani he nearly decided to kill Galivar and I suspect his journey around Roshar was to kind of purge himself of that. He happened to meet Shshsh along the way and it seems to have been more like a “beauty and the beast” relationship. I’d guess she was a calming influence on him and after her death he might have reverted somewhat.
Galivar then Dalinar then Adolin all seemed to approve of normal modern Alethi ways and then reversed that opinion – Adolin during book 1. Shallan considers the Alethi court to be the most ferocious in the world. We don’t know what the average Alethi Lighteyed woman is really like but it’s probably not too pleasant for someone who doesn’t like Alethi society as a whole. This is why I think Shallan being an outsider helps her relationship with Adolin. I would guess that Adolin tried to fit in with normal Alethi ways but his mother’s influence meant he never truly fit. I don’t think he needs someone who resembles his mother though – actually, someone who strongly reminds him of his mother might actually be the least likely to succeed.
Does Adolin need to get over his mother’s death to form a proper relationship with another woman? If it is then his relationship with Shallan is highly likely to go through a rocky patch or break down until that happens, though there’s other reasons why that could happen.
If Adolin has had a physical relationship with a woman it was probably a saucy maid back home or his soldier friends dragging him to a brothel before Dalinar became strict about the “old ways”. ie not part of a romantic relationship.
btw, I don’t see Kaladin as falling into the “farmboy hero” trope at all. Mark of destiny? Nope. Call to action? Nope, he volunteered. Actual farmboy? Country-boy yes but one with real prospects and some education. He’s much more like a character from a heroic fantasy novel than epic fantasy – perhaps not that surprising since some parts of the Stormlight Archive are loosely based on a heroic fantasy book. Brandon has also made it clear he doesn’t find following conventions or tropes to be motivating even though he does sometimes use them in part.
@38: It is true we are lacking information when it comes to Adolin and his dates. In book, we see him going through several women though: Rilla, Janala, Malasha and Danlan. Rilla was the girl he was courting when he made lunch appointment with insistent Janala. He admittedly feels bad for Rilla and while he realized he did screw up, he doesn’t understand how he could have made such a mistake (unconscious actions). On her side, Janala is said to rapidly lose interest in Adolin now he is “available” which gives credence to @35 when stating “dating Adolin” has likely become a game by then. Janala was a player and she had no time to lose with Adolin once he proven not completely dedicated to her every whim on their one date. Adolin is perfectly aware of what he did wrong here: he was a lousy date and he agrees to let Janala go.
Malasha was the girl who liked to read poetry which caused an embarrassed Adolin to quote scripture in front of a bewildered Dalinar… She seemed a typical girl for Adolin. The courtship was doing just fine up until she asked if she could see the battlefield…. a request Adolin refused her. Afterwards, no more mention of Malash except to state she has grown cold and distant. My thoughts? She tried to get too close, Adolin rebuffed her and HE grew distant and cold which she responded by becoming colder and even more distant.
Danlan was the girl everyone approved her: intelligent and pretty, but her interactions with Adolin were shallow and lack any warmth. However, Adolin was committed to make it work, stating he would NOT screw it up, if only to shut Renarin up (oh Renarin… you annoying teasing little brother) and yet it ends abruptly due to her saying unknown words to her friends. The break-up was public and embarrassing, but we were not privy to the details.
We should also mention Melali which once dated Adolin, but is now bitter due to an event involving her sister… A honest mistake, according to Adolin. Really Adolin? It seems he flirted or ogled at the sister while dating her… That’s one massive screw up. It seems to fit his long trail is bad boyfriend behavior.
Or Jenet who despise Adolin so much she throws rocks at him? Adolin seems not to care as he retains his playful nature whenever around her.
All in all, we have seen at least 4 women where he did screw up though we are not given the complete details. Each time, he makes a mistake he understand, later on, was a mistake, but is somehow unable to prevent himself from doing. He just does not understand how he always ends up in those situations.
We are not given many clues regarding Adolin’s past either. We know his mother shaped his early sense of morality which implies she raised him herself as opposed to putting him in the care of a nurse. We know he carries a memento he is rather found of. We know he likes to receive motherly attentions from Navani, even better, he craves for it: a rather untypical behavior for a young man his age. It is thus impossible “mother’s death” left no mark on him even though we are led to believe nothing of import happened in Adolin’s younger years.
My guess is while he did accept her death, he did made a shaky peace with this fact, he retained a feeling of abandonment, of being left out, or being rejected. It is likely nobody talked with him about it: Adolin is strong, healthy, he projects an aura of overconfidence, nobody saw fit to make sure he was alright. Hence, he was left to deal with those feelings, all by himself and he didn’t. He just kept going on, but now suffers the consequences: each time a girl gets too close to him, it triggers his fight or flight response which cause him to just screw it up.
I also suspect learning Dalinar forgot all about her is likely to re-open those old wounds, providing Brandon wants to explore this side of the story.
I am unsure what Adolin needs to do to succeed in a relationship… I suspect he likely needs a very patient and persistent woman who will see throw the lie that is his “famous reputation” and would refuse to take his no for an answer. He needs someone who’ll understand where he comes from and would be willing to stand for it, to wait for him. In other words, he is the one who is going to need to be courted for a long time before he is able to get close enough to call it a marriage. Those are just random thoughts though.
Adolin didn’t become a soldier until the Shattered Plains so after the Code was implemented. I doubt the grizzled old soldiers took their Highprince young unmarried son to the brothels….
As for Dalinar, the event which led him to nearly kill Gavilar happened after Shshshsh death, so I do agree her death likely trust Dalinar into a rash uncontrollable mode as she seemed to have acted as a controller for him. We also know he did a trip to the West as a youth being about Adolin’s current age. Since his wife is a foreigner, it seems likely he met her then. The question would then be, did he spent 3 years abroad courting her and did she, for some unknown reason, followed him back to Alethkar without agreeing to his courtship? I somehow like the idea young Dalinar left for years and came back with a gorgeous pregnant wife or even better, with a gorgeous wife holding a blond headed baby boy in her arms. The return of the prodigy son.
Fair enough about Kaladin and the farmboy. I see similitude in the fact he is from a poor environment, he is thrown into a world of higher born individuals, he finds himself with super powers and he is seen to rise up in station. Either way, he is a very traditional hero and he has a very traditional feel about him.
ChrisRijk @@@@@ 38
I believe SA3 will provide the answer to that question since it will be Dalinar’s book. There is a big chance that Ssshshh will be mentioned and discussed.
As for Adolin and Shallan, their relationship is destined for a rocky patch no matter what. And, believe it or not, it is not because Kaladin finally started seeing Shallan as a woman.
In the ending of WoR, Adolin already has a hard time accepting that Shallan is a Radiant. I forgot the exact quote, but it is something about, “before it an engagement between an important man and a scion of an unknown and poor family.” That was okay with Adolin. Somehow, he knew that Shallan ranks high enough but her family is poor.
But, when Shallan became a Radiant, then all of sudden, she became the most important woman in Roshar and higher ranked than Adolin who is second dahn. All of a sudden, Adolin is at a disadvantage for the FIRST TIME ever.
All the women that Adolin courted, including Shallan, Adolin always have had the upper hand. He is a Prince, he is the heir to a Princedom, he is cousin to the King, he is Royal, he is third in line for the throne. He is rich. All the other women were either third dahn, fourth or fifth. They rank high enough. But other than Jasnah and Navani who are perhaps second dahn (they might even be third), no women in Roshar is higher than Adolin. I believe Elhokar’s wife has to be second dahn, too.
Now, Shallan is higher than Adolin and he is having a hard time wrapping his head around it.
I believe that is also the reason why he lost control with Sadeas and ended up killing him. It was alright when Sadeas was just mouthing off about Dalinar, Kaladin and the Parshendi who was a member of Bridge 4. Adolin took those in stride. But when Sadeas mentioned Shallan, Adolin lost it.
As most of us here already expect, the murder of Sadeas will have a profound effect on Adolin and what will happen to him in SA3. It goes without saying that it will also affect his relationship with Shallan.
It is also worthy to note that against all odds, Adolin fell in love with Shallan. The scene between Shallan and Adolin after Shallan got back from being lost was a big romantic moment. Not much was spoken and of course it was from Shallan’s POV, but it was already obvious that Adolin has fallen for his betrothed.
I really can’t wait for SA3. One more year to wait – 2017. What do I read in between?
Two things stand out for Brandon as a writer. One, Brandon is a trope-breaker. Those of you that are worried about Shallan/Kaladin ship because the narrative demands it, I wouldn’t be too concerned on that note. It may happen, but I have confidence that if it does it will be because it makes the best possible story, not because he’s following some sort of epic fantasy playbook. Second, he seems to bring his main players to the brink of doom before they save the day or whatever. Judging by that, there will certainly be some painful moments for our lovebirds but knowing Brandon, there is always some hope of them pulling it out.
Adolin’s exact wording:
A few days ago, his causal betrothal had been that of a powerful man to a relatively minor scion of a distant house.
He did not use the terms “poor” though the Kholins are aware Shallan’s house isn’t exactly into prime conditions. They arguable only agreed to the causal because Jasnah vouched for it.
We also do not know which dahn Adolin is… only that he is either second or third dahn. Being of the fifth dahn, Shallan would have probably been too low ranked to call on Adolin without the additional support of her warding to a powerful woman. The women Adolin dated appeared to have been either the daughters of other Highprinces (he seemed to have run through those rather quickly) and the daughters of high ranked officers within various warcamps. All likely were of the 4th or 3rd dahn.
This last chapter also isn’t the only instance where Adolin reacts to the unknown by being insecure but I do agree it contribute to his lost of control: he was already filled with contrasting emotions. Sadeas simply added to the mix and he just didn’t have the strength to withstand another bout. Hence, he snapped and he rode his anger like a mad whitespine.
However, I don’t have the same reading of this scene as you… Sadeas mentioned Shallan only once and it was to illustrate how convenient it was those new Radiants were all within Dalinar’s retinue. It was not the fact Sadeas pronounced the name Shallan which set him of, but the realization it was not over. The realization it was all but too easy for Sadeas to discriminate his father, again. The irrevocable truth that Sadeas would never ever relent and yes he still had the means to harm them. So it was not really Shallan who prompt him into action, but fear for his family members, fear for his father and just the incapacity to deal with it anymore. He just overflowed.
I am not sure I would call whatever he feels for Shallan love yet… not without his own POV to read his thoughts on the matter, but he is definitely crushing on her.
@41: What you say is true, when it comes to Brandon’s main characters, namely Kaladin. I don’t know how far Brandon is going to be willing to push/develop Adolin as a character. I therefore cannot say if he’ll repeat the pattern for him, but we can expect the relationship will not pan out without any hardships.
Brandon do break tropes, but he also uses them abundantly. He is rather fond of putting his main characters together, as a union. I thus suspect he may want to use Kaladin/Shallan not because it respond to a classic trope, but because he, as a writer, prefer to have his main protagonists together. Also because it may have been his original plan as there initially was no Adolin.
I see Adolin’s future pans in several different ways with respect to relationships:
1) He dies and becomes the symbol of the “cost of war”, the one they have to sacrifice to ensure unity.
2) He survives and he ultimately ends up with Shallan, though not after many struggles and a long courtship. He stands a chance at a happy ending.
3) He survives, but Shallan ultimately does not choose him: she either chooses Kaladin or to remain single. His future is bitter sweet. He either choose to remain a bachelor, entirely giving up on relationships. He hardens. Or he choose to marry a woman he does not love and who does not love him, by convenience. A loveless ill-suited marriage.
4) Brandon has other plans we have not thought of.
I agree that Sanderson doesn’t like conventional arcs for his main characters. The original Mistborn trilogy is evidence of that (I am deliberately avoiding giving examples so as not to spoil things for those who haven’t read the books – but I’m referring to Vin, Kelsier, Elend, and Sazed). Similarly, we should not assume the fate of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin, or their developing relationships. They may not even all survive the 3rd book. I do expect that Adolin’s role will become more important in this book. If he doesn’t become a Radiant, he may well obtain Jezrien’s honorblade from his father as a compensation for exile. He may then be trained by Kaladin in Windrunner type abilities at which he should excel – if his swordsmanship is any indication. In any case, it will take more than Kaladin and whomever he trains as squires to lead the fight against the Voidbringers.
@43 STBLST
Adolin as a new Herald and possibly one of a group to replace the fallen Heralds? That could be cool. Epic in fact, although ti doesn’t bode well for his fate should he die in such a role were he to become a True Herald…
Gepeto @42 – “Brandon do break tropes, but he also uses them abundantly. He is rather fond of putting his main characters together, as a union.”
Care to give some examples? Because I can’t really think of any, except Elantris. I suppose an argument could be made for Warbreaker, but it’s a bit dodgy. Mostly, he doesn’t go for “female lead + male lead = perfect match” tropes.
STBLST @43:
I hope that Dalinar gets Jezrien’s blade, since he can no longer use dead shards and can’t expect Stormfather to turn into a blade for him.Yet, he is still a priority target for many and needs means to defend himself. Also, with healing and strengthening influence of Stormlight, coupled with possible exile for Adolin and Kaladin’s absence, his retirement from military command wouldn’t make sense any longer, so… Even if Adolin isn’t banished, Dalinar still plans to try to visit other countries and try to treat and reason with them, so he needs to be able to protect himself.
Gepeto @42:
Does it really matter that Adolin wasn’t initially conceived as a long-term character? Things grow and change in the writing and his prominence may have altered Sanderson’s plans for other characters. Personally, I expect him to become the King of Alethkar at some point and replace both Dalinar and Elokhar. Renarin may have been initially supposed to become the “important” brother, but the way his character has been developed so far doesn’t really allow for him to become a great leader that his people need. Kaladin becoming one would be too contrived and implausible, IMHO, so who else is there?
Maybe initially Elokhar was supposed to shape up and fill part of that role – “whiny, spoiled royalty getting a whiff of real world and becoming awesome” trope, but at this point it would be more interesting and less predictable for a character-type that is traditionally killed off in most fantasy novels to allow the overlooked misfit younger sibling(s) to shine – the well-adjusted, capable eldest son and heir, to actually survive and take over. And discover that however well they are prepared and suited to the position, it is still bloody hard.
Re: Adolin’s previous courtships, I still find it completely implausible that all these young women would break up with Adolin in that society short of him behaving like a Bluebeard. And even then – consider that Lin Davar didn’t have much difficulty in finding a second wife, even though it was widely known that he had murdered his first one. And if Lin Davar was still considered enough of a catch to attract a spouse of a suitable rank (his marriage with Malise wasn’t considered a misalliance), then even with Dalinar’s declining reputation, his young, handsome, warlike heir would have remained an irresistible prospect to many.
Speaking of Danlan – she was one of the plotters behind the murder attempt on Elokhar, so quite possibly a Diagrammist?
@42: Going off what @45 said, Sanderson tends to avoid that. He even mentioned in the Annotations for Mistborn that it was something he was cognitively aware of as a trope and also that pairing off the first couple of characters is common (something that didn’t work for Mistborn because Kelsier had a very different role to play with Vin).
I believe I’ve mentioned this before but, if we go with Sanderson’s main body of published writing (not counting the WoT books because they’re a special section, although they wouldn’t exactly disprove my point either), once two characters pair off they’re usually accounted for. There may be hurdles but generally once they find someone that’s the one. Off the top of my head the biggest exceptions would be Warbreaker and that’s depending on how you considering the betrothal, and then Wax from The Alloy of Law/Wax and Wayne, and that case involves death. Which admittedly could be how things shake out here, but it’s important to remember that Sanderson discovery writes for characters and gives them the chance to change the plot, so I think of your options 4 might be the most likely just because, even 2 books in, there’s a lot of fluidity in what can happen as the characters interact with one another.
As to who gets Jezrien’s honorblade…well Kaladin goes away before he can train anyone in the Lashes at all, so I figured it’d probably be kept away. Although as I think on it, maybe Navani ends up with it: not necessarily to use so much as to research and experiment with.
@43: I personally do not want to see Adolin yield the Honorblade. I would be horribly anti-climatic to see him give up a Blade he loves for a powerful tool: I just don’t see Adolin agreeing with this. It feels very OOC for him to discard a Blade he cares for so much to favor a Honorblade. The way I read it, he is more likely to refuse such weapon even providing it is offered to him. It could actually make a nice parallel to Kaladin refusing the Shards.
I also do not think Adolin in exile would be permitted to leave with either a Honorblade or a Shardblade. If he leaves, it will be alone and Shardless (and penniless and heart-broken). We would thus have Adolin wandering across the land and helping people along the way as he can’t, despite all that happened, just not care, such as the littlest hobo, but never tying any lasting bond with anyone anymore. It hurts too much. So he helps and is then promtly on his way with a whistling song in the background.
I pray the 10 Herald can figure out a better story than that…
@45: Let’s see…
Vin and Elend who arguably is the main male lead following Kelsier’s death. Besides, being decades older, I personally never considered Kelsier to be a prospect for Vin. Later on, when Zane arrives, she does choose to remain with Elend.
Siri and Susebron, though you could argue Susebron is not a major character, which I would agree with. I have seen some people argue Vivienna and Vasher would eventually develop “something”, but this has yet to pass, so I’ll leave it as is.
David and Megan: the classic male lead ends up with the female lead after a bout of bickering and snarkling which, of course, hid true love.
Mistborn Era 2 didn’t really offer the possibility of pairing the leads together as Wax is decades older than Marasi… Not impossible, but frankly discomforting.
I am tempted to say Joel and Melody, but it hasn’t pan out into anything more than friendship. They still remain one of my favorite Brandon’s duo (and book): such an under-rated book, I absolutely loved the Rithmatist.
I haven’t read Elantris yet, so I cannot comment on it.
So there’s that. I agree I may have been carried away with my initial comment and I’ll admit I was mostly thinking of Vin/Elend and David/Megan not so much about the others.
@46: It matters in the sense Brandon likely had a plan when it comes to relationships: Shallan probably had a love interest in the first version of SA. Who was it? It can’t have been Adolin as he was not around. Kaladin seems as the most probable candidate. Therefore, if Brandon initially planned on having Kaladin and Shallan as a union, then why would he change his mind on something so profound simply because he unkilled a character he never planned on developing?
Althought, it is also possible Shallan’s love interest was some random guy which now merged into Adolin as a character and Brandon simply toss Kaladin into the lot to wathc us squirm…
I agree we just don’t know, but I keep wondering how significant the fact Adolin is not supposed to be in the story to his future story arc. It all goes back to how much is Brandon willing to change to accomodate him?
As for Renarin, I never read “important” as implying he would become “a leader”: as not all important characters are leaders. I merely understood the term “important” as meaning Renarin was the brother we were supposed to follow in the story, not Adolin. Though Renarin is, arguably, supposed to be a main player in the second arc, not the first. Therefore his lack of actual presence may have been planned from the beginning, though you could argue WoK Prime had a lot of Renarin in it…
I agree killing Adolin to favor the less apt over-shadowed brother is a rather common trope I too would like to see broken. I agree his character is practically always killed in novels: the one who was too perfect to exist. As if all authors figured they needed an under-dog for the readers to develop an emotional attachment to. It would be great for an author to take a plunge with the “Prince Charming” character by giving him layers, doubts, a personality and allowing him to be more than a classic trope which either ends with his death or him being a simpleton.
I am personally not keen on seeing Elhokar learning to become a great king, it somehow rings false to my ears. I agree Kaladin would be too contrived.
As for relationships, while he did screw up, Adolin certainly is no Bluebeard which is why I sincerely think the problem is him and just him. He can’t commit to a young woman, he can’t open-up, he can’t create new attachment links due to a deep fear they’ll get broken again. As a result, he first screw up and he then rapidly moves onto the next girl. He never tries to fix his screw ups, he is never seen pursuing the girl furthermore. After the first misteps, he just leave it be. Kadash warns him he should be more persistant, but he isn’t. It suits his deepest fear perfectly well. It is a pattern, so it isn’t no girls would have never gone through with him: he never let them. As soon as the relationship started to move forward, he does the unthinkable, the girl gets mad and he drops it to move onto the new comer.
In other words, it isn’t there are no girls who would have been willing to look pass Adolin’s misplaced actions: he never allowed them to. He never stick with one long enough, too keen he was to break it up. Hence, he is seen as a flirt and a player, but his inner thoughts tell us he is no such thing.
However, it is his fault.
@47: Well I put number 4 for a reason… we may not guess all that will happen. In fact, we are likely not to guess all that will happen. However, Brandon did say he loves foreshadowing and his goal is not to write completely unpredictable stories as there is satisfaction to be had in just being right about key elements.
However, the one thing I did notice was readers and author perception may not always align when it comes to who is a main character and who isn’t. My personal perception is tied in with POV time, but Brandon has a different perspective. The best example I can think of being Szeth which is considered a major character despite having all but 4 POV chapters in WoR. He also won’t have many POV in book 3, book 5 being the one announced with a lot of Szeth action (new WoB I read yesterday, so we can rule out Szeth as one of the three Part 1 POV). Until then, he will likely remain in the back. So while this particular character is important to events unfolding, he does not benefit enough character development for my psyche to consider him anything else than an “important side character”.
The author may thus write the story with an intend, but he does not control how the readers will perceive it.
MULTI-BOOK SPOILERS – Mistborn Era 1, Mistborn Era 2, Reckoners, Rithmatist, Warbreaker
Gepeto @48 – See, I don’t think Mistborn qualifies. Elend didn’t become a main character until after Vin chose him; once he was paired with her, he either had to die or become significant. It’s easily arguable that Sazed is a more central character than Elend for the entire trilogy, and we know Saze/Vin was never going to happen, right? Mistborn Era 2 doesn’t qualify either, obviously – despite the fact that many fans were hoping for a Wax/Marasi match even with the age difference. And I’m pretty sure Wax/Wayne isn’t going to happen.
As far as the Reckoners series, I don’t think a book with a single POV can quite qualify for the “the male and female leads become a pair” – but you can if you want. I would again argue that Megan doesn’t become a truly key player until David cares enough about her to help her change, but in any case I don’t see YA books the same way as other fantasy. There are just a lot less people involved, and you write differently for a different audience. Rithmatist… we don’t know yet what happens with Joel & Melody.
What else is there? Warbreaker, as I said, would have to match Siri and Lightsong to really fit the trope, and it doesn’t. Susebron is significant in his position more than anything; he’s not even a POV character, is he? Vivenna/Vasher, maybe – but a) we don’t know if they go romantic and b) they aren’t really The Lead Characters.
That leaves Elantris.
(I don’t consider the WoT books in this list, because they weren’t his to plan, and most of the pairings were set long before he got involved.)
On the other subject… “I agree we just don’t know, but I keep wondering how significant the fact Adolin is not supposed to be in the story to his future story arc. It all goes back to how much is Brandon willing to change to accomodate him?”
As Isilel said, having changed the story enough to keep Adolin alive, what else has changed since that time? We don’t know. However… Knowing what I know about how Brandon works, I think Adolin’s original plotline (plot-dot?) is essentially meaningless at this point. Brandon knows the overall arc of where he’s going with the larger story, but there’s plenty of room within that for characters to develop in a lot of different ways than how he wrote them on the first drafts. It wasn’t until earlier this year that he even sat down and actually outlined the next book and the remaining first-arc flashback sequences. On top of that, he’s always said that when he writes, he allows the characters to do the things they need to do as they grow – and sometimes, that means revising some of the details of where he thought they would go. It won’t affect the Cosmere-level story, and it probably won’t change the Roshar-level events themselves… but it might affect who does what within that framework.
Which is to say, I think you’d do well to let go of the idea that since Adolin was not originally active in the plots, he never can be. He already is a significant character, and I don’t believe that Brandon is suddenly going to look at it and go, “Okay, I didn’t plan for him to be around for this stuff, so I guess I’d better kill him now and get him out of the way.” He certainly could die, but if he does, it won’t be as a convenient way to get rid of a now-inconvenient character. He matters to too many people, and his death would affect the plot in pretty radical ways.
Then again, as I’ve said before, you and I approach reading very differently. Everything I’ve read so far encourages me to trust Brandon’s storytelling. Whether he goes in directions I expected/hoped, or whether he goes somewhere completely different, I’ve always found that the story he tells is better than whatever I was anticipating. I’m good with that.
I confess that I had not given sufficient thought to Dalinar’s anticipated role in book 3. Obviously, it will be major since he will, apparently, be the main viewpoint character. The question is whether that role will be largely confined to Urithiru or whether he will lead expeditions outside to combat the Voidbringers and rescue more people. If the latter, then he will definitely need that Jezrien honorblade that Kaladin gave him. It would be useful even in Urithiru, but I believe that the strength of his personality coupled with the correctness of his highstorm visions could serve to make him accepted as the uniter of the peoples in Urithiru. Kaladin will, in all probability, return to Urithiru in short order, either in triumph or initial dejection. In either case, he will become available to train Adolin or Dalinar in Windrunner tactics and abilities, and to train Shallan in the use of a sprenblade as a weapon. It’s possible, I suppose, that all 4 main characters, Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Adolin will leave or be exiled from Urithiru once a rejuvenated and assertive Elhokar enters Urithiru and learns of Sadeas killing and Shallan’s dealings with the Ghostbloods. Daliner would likely choose to go with and assist Adolin. Kaladin would probably choose to go with the 3 rather than staying in safety in Urithiru (at the least, he would want to protect Shallan. Those 4 would be an awesome combination.
@51 My imaginings of the next book are rather different.
There has been a hint that Shallan will be visiting multiple new locations (and sketching them) so I’m expecting the Urithiru MCs to figure out how to open the Urithiru portal to others fairly quickly, though maybe not all of them. I’d expect the main themes of the book to be about dealing with the Everstorm and starting to try to rally the world together, with Dalinar taking the lead as leader of the Radiants.
I see no chance of Elhokar trying to kick out the MCs from Urithiru. For one thing, it would probably mean he’s stuck there since nobody would be able to open the portal. I can see him becoming more assertive during the book but why would he even want to kick out his best allies? When the portal from Urithiru to Kholinar opens I’d expect Elhokar to want to go through and re-stabilise the city, since that’s what he’s king of, not Urithiru.
Of the MCs, I’d say Dalinar is the guy most likely to disagree with Adolin’s killing of Sadeas. I’m not expecting Kaladin’s return home to be brief, I’m expecting him to be separate from the Urithiru MCs for most of the book. I’m not expecting Shallan to start doing physical combat training unless something makes her think it’s a high priority – I don’t think she’s uninterested but will probably be juggling many other higher priority items, as usual. I wonder what Jasnah will be doing – will she try to meet up with the MCs at Urithiru as soon as possible or does she have another objective? We should also see some chapters from Renarin’s point of view.
For the climax of the book I’d expect some group (maybe the Ghostbloods or maybe another kingdom) to try to take it over.
Gepeto@48:
I haven’t read any of the proto-WoK, but didn’t it already contain a very important plot point difference to the actual SA series, that had major repercussions for a lot of characters, the world-building, etc.
Namely, I have read somewhere – in one of Sanderson’s Q&As, I think, that initially the proto-Kaladin accepted and used the shards that he had won on the battlefield. Which is, IMHO, a far greater change than identity of proto-Shallan’s hypothetical love interest. In fact, in this early and rather condensed tale, Shallan’s romantic life may have been of marginal, if any, interest. And I am not completely sure that it should/would be quite as important in the SA as many think ;).
STBLST @51:
They need at least one Radiant with a living blade in Urithiru in order to operate the Oathgate. Shallan needs to stay put. And Dalinar is the Bondsmith, he is not going into exile. If they find a way to open the other Oathgates and/or Jasnah finally figures out her Transportation surge so that she can use it reliably and can take passengers, then he’ll visit other countries. But unless there is some civilization situated relatively close to Urithiru by conventional transport, Dalinar isn’t going anywhere in a hurry.
Nor do I see Kaladin returning “in a short order”, when leadership and protection would be so obviously needed in Alethkar. In fact, isn’t the young royal heir – who is also a Kholin and thus falls within the purview of Kaladin’s oath of service, likely in serious danger in Kholinar?
Something a bit more on topic: on the way to the Shattered Plains, Shallan picks up some slaves and deserters who effectively become part of her household. She hasn’t done much with them yet but I’m hoping to see them developed more in book 3. Later in book 2 she feels that they are increasingly protective of her and she seems to be more relaxed and trusting of them. So maybe she’ll officially make them into her personal honour guard? She might even organise training for them, by hiring/buying an ardent – would be interesting if she gets Zahel. She might also get new nahns for them. It would be interesting to see all that from a world-building perspective. Of course, I expect them to develop into Radiant Squires as well, at some point, though Shallan might not be expecting that. Anyone else get some thoughts about the above?
More specifically about Shallan herself: how often have you seen Shallan express a positive opinion of herself or her abilities, even by implication? I can only think of a few cases. Not that the other MCs are busy extolling their virtues though but Shallan seems moderately down about herself, on just about everything about herself. She often uses self-deprecating humour too.
In chapter 30, in response to Tyn, Shallan suggests that she’s faking not being “broken”. In This chapter in response to Pattern she says she is “mad”. In chapter 70 Kaladin asks if she’s insane and she says “probably”. In chapter 71 Kaladin says she tries too hard and she says “It’s what keeps me insane”. In the last two it comes across as comedic but I think for Shallan there is an element of truth there – I’m pretty sure she believes herself to somewhat crazy / not quite sane.
She’s definitely getting more assertive and positive about herself during the book but it’s hard to guess which way she is going to go after the events right at the end. My impression is that she sort-of knew (at least for a few years) that she had been the one who killed her mother but she couldn’t remember all the details and it was hard for her to think about it without blanking – so she could only think about it indirectly and in book 3 she should be able to think about it directly. Right at the end Dalinar thinks Shallan looked quite ragged when they first got to Urithiru but looks a lot better but not fully recovered by then, which may imply that she spent several days recovering from the last scene from her point of view. Will we eventually see a more self-positive and less self-deprecating Shallan during book 3…? Seems like the natural progression though maybe she’ll go in a slightly different angle…
@49: There are as many ways to read a book as there are readers. As I said, we each have our own perception: one is not better than the other, but it does lead to a lack of comprehension on certain issues.
I do agree Sazed is, ultimately, a more central and important character than Elend, but while I read the book I considered it to be the opposite. It is only when I reached the ending I realized the extend of Sazed’s importance. Whether you consider Elend to be important enough to qualify as male lead or not belongs to you, but I sure thought he was among the most central characters in the story. Also, as you pointed out, it isn’t as if our dear Vin had much other options when it came to relationships… She arguably had Spook, but he still was in his awkward phase when he profess his love. However, he does become a major player in the third book, arguably one of the most popular POV (I was personally fond of TenSoon the kandra’s POV). She had Zane who essentially was “the bad guy”. I agree Elend was nothing more but a side character when she fell for him, but the next book solved the issue.
As for Mistborn Era 2, I pointed out there weren’t much possibilities for a lead female and lead male union unless you are comfortable with a 40 years old man dating an 18 years old teenager young enough to be his daughter. I believed I stated as much in my previous response.
As for the Reckoners, yes it is a single POV book, but we can easily argue Megan is the most important female character. We may not have her POV, but we have two books practically dedicated to David fawning on her, so I do count it as character exposition.
I didn’t feel Warbreaker had any definitive lead, but I agree Susebron isn’t one. No, he does not have a POV.
FYI, I don’t consider the WoT books either: not his original story.
I don’t know, maybe I don’t have a point. You are probably right: they are all very different and to be frank none annoyed me as much as the prospective Kaladin/Shallan union. I am at loss to express why it rubs me of the wrong side so badly and perhaps reading so many comments stating it was undeniable they would end up together has started to grate me. Or perhaps it is the trope attached to it just seems such a horrible cliche I can’t find any interest in it. I never liked it, even before I started rooting for Adolin, so I don’t think this is it.
As for the rest, my point merely was myself wondering how much of his canon is flexible and how much isn’t. We know Brandon allows his characters room to grow (I wonder if the reverse is also true, are there characters he thought on writing more of, but just didn’t work as well as he expected), I have read the same interviews. However, I keep wondering to which extend? We are both going to agree he isn’t going to change the end game, the Cosmere, the magic system, the large scope of things, but smaller events may be tweaked. It is obvious Adolin was not supposed to kill Sadeas in this first version as Adolin was dead himself by then. As a result, someone else took him of. Who? How? When? It is now irrelevant.
In the scope of this thread, I wondered if Brandon was flexible on shipping. A story he initially planned featuring the male lead together with the female lead would be rather different as it makes me wonder if such planning are truly flexible. For instance, if he had planned to write Kaladin/Shallan, is this aspect of the story one he is ready to compromise because he now has an extra character? I don’t know, but I do wonder.
As for Adolin’s importance, I’ll admit this one is being shove down my throat on a regular basis. Adolin is not important: he has no flashback books. Adolin is a lesser character than Kaladin. Adolin is probably going to die because he has no purpose. One Kohlin has to die, but it can’t ben Elhokar because he sees stormcursed shadows in the mirror. The number of times I read this is frankly annoying, so I have perhaps gotten too sensitive on this issue.
I agree you and I appear to be different readers. Unlike you, I am unable to have such an indestructible faith in Brandon, whom I adore and hasn’t deceive me yet, but… but… but how many authors have deceived me in the last years? Jordan, Martin, Hobb to only name a few have all, at times, written in a few deceptions… Martin certainly being the greatest as he managed to write a book without any of the favored POV characters which is probably why I get so afraid when Brandon mentions his “flashback characters” and most currently aren’t very well developed characters. It makes me think of A Feast for Crows.
@51: I agree with others, I doubt Dalinar would go into exile with Adolin. He is more likely to be overly mad as his son, he’ll send him away and regret, much, much, much later when Adolin is out of his reach.
@53: I understand your confusion, I was not entirely clear in my thoughts. I consider there are two drafts prior to the current version: the one comprised in WoK and the early draft in WoK. In the first, Adolin was named Aredor. He was not the same character at all. Dalinar had three sons: Aredor/Adolin was the second son, Renarin being the third. Their older brother, a famous duelist, was killed defending king Gavilar. I was not referring to this version, but the first draft of WoK and the SA plan which accompany it. In this draft, Adolin died early in the story and had a limited role. This was changed as the early comments Brandon received all asked for a third person POV on Dalinar as his inner struggle was too confusing (and not interesting) to read. Hence Adolin was brought back from the grave as I suspect Renarin didn’t work well in that role. Brandon then admitted he liked the character, so he gave him a larger role than intended. In that first plan, I suspect Shallan had a love interest and I wonder who it was as it can’t have been Adolin. If it was Kaladin, then is this plot part of those who were flexible? I have to wonder.
I agree Kaladin isn’t coming back soon. I have also read book 3 will show-cast many travels as the oathgates will be re-opened: so they won’t spend the whole book in Urithiru.
@55 “The number of times I read this is frankly annoying, so I have perhaps gotten too sensitive on this issue.”
I’d say you’re definitely too sensitive, though I understand your fears and I wish I could allay them.
I dunno if it helps but Shallan did not exist in “the way of kings prime” – Jasnah had a ward in that version but that person was completely different to Shallan. As far as I’m aware she and Kaladin never met in any prototype or draft version of the Stormlight Archive – ie there’s no alternative relationship outside the canon.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=531#4
Gepeto @55 – Maybe it’s a good thing I don’t spend more time on 17th Shard; if I had that many people insisting that Kaladin/Shallan Had To Be A Thing I’d be irritable about it too. Especially since I don’t think they make a good pair at all. :D
ChrisRijk @@@@@ 54
Yes, me too. I want to see more of Gaz and Vhata. They are interesting side characters the same way that members of Bridge 4 are interesting.
Shallan actually picked up 18 soldiers and 5 slaves on the way to the Shattered Plains. It is good to note that all of them actually work for Shallan. Though the slaves work in Serbarial’s household, they are still considered part of Shallan’s entourage. Please note that all those slaves are working off their slavery. In two years time, they will be free.
The 18 soldiers are being paid by Shallan from the stipend that Serbarial is giving her which is either 2 or 3 broams a week, which from what I gather is actually a large amount. Like Bridge 4 who owes their freedom to Kaladin, all 18 soldiers owe their freedom to Shallan.
And yes, they have grown protective of Shallan. Ever since they found out she had a shard blade, their respect for her grew. Or perhaps, they feared her first. Nevertheless, I think Shallan did not understand at first what it meant having a shard blade.
In general she knew what having a shard blade meant. But, Shallan was also very sheltered growing up so she did not realize that shard bearers usually have honor guards. Vhata knew, and I guess that is the reason why he had all 18 of them rotating to guard Shallan.
I really want to see more of Gaz and Vhata. I believe they have a story to tell no matter how small. :-)
Maybe this shows just a lack of knowledge about stuff Sanderson has said in WoB or other outside materials, but I always felt in the shipping regard that was probably almost entirely discovery-based. While relationships often inform the emotional beats behind plot points I feel like in a planning regard they can be used as a supplement, so I always imagined Sanderson gave his characters room to flex there.
Also in that regard, Gepeto’s reasons for having issues with the Kaladin/Shallan ship are my reasons I tend to have some issues with shipping in general. It can be fun but go in the wrong place and there’s just so much of it and it can get so aggressive, woof. @@@@@_@@@@@ I think in the reread we keep it at least somewhat calm, although it tends to be one of the more heated aspects in the comments.
@56: Point taken. I’ll try meditating and to focus on those Christmas cookies I have to bake: chocolate, ginger bread, regular, filled, non-filled, dipped into chocolate… Plenty of cookie work.
@57: If only it was only the 17th Shard… but I read it on Reddit as well… It is irritating.
Speculating here whiles away the time until we see what Sanderson does with his epic. It is unlikely that Brandon’s tale will conform to any of the speculations. However, in the interest of carrying my imaginings further, let me first offer the observation that we don’t know yet how much destruction has already been caused outside of Urithiru. I would assume that all the cities have been devasted by the Everstorm and the Parshmen turned Voidbringers. There may not be much left of Kholinar for Kaladin to rescue – assuming that he stops there on the way to the portal at the center of the Shattered Plains. Besides, Kholinar may be where Jasnah and Hoid are heading. She is in a better position to rescue the survivors than the unknown Kaladin. She is a well-known royal figure who is intimately familiar with her city. She also has a sprenblade to open the Kholinar portal – if it still exists. Hoid could offer protection, if needed – assuming that he is adept with that mysterious silvery blade of his. This is all geared to the assumption that Kaladin will soon return to Urithiru with or without his parents/Laral. He may not lead the fight against the Voidbringers if Talenelat recovers from his extreme post-traumatic syndrome behavior. A recovered Taln would be more than a match for any Voidbringer. Dalinar may remain in Urithiru as some have suggested and serve to unify the various factions who have sought refuge there. However, a Urithiru – bound Dalinar is not expected to be nearly as interesting as a moving, leading, and fighting character who has the main points of view in this new book.
Gepeto @@@@@ 60 – to keep my mind off from waiting for the next book, I just read another book. Currently I’m reading Awoken by Sarah Noffke. It’s about dream travelers. Great story!
Anyway, if you find a good series of books, it will distract you from surfing the net about the Stormlight Archive. :-) I just get my SA fix from here. I don’t go anywhere. That’s how I keep myself from being distracted. :-)
Have a great day baking cookies. I just buy them. LOL I am not a great cook or pastry chef. So I depend on our friendly neighborhood bakery.
STBLST @@@@@ 61 – I agree about Jasnah being more active in this book. Though Kholinar might not be her destination. She has to go to Urithiru first just to see what is going on with her family, her ward (Shallan) and what they have found there.
But, I will also like to add that Renarin will also see some character development. He loves and hero worship his older brother. If something happens to Adolin, which we all know there will be something because of his murder of Sadeas, Renarin will react.
Now, here is my wish list for SA3 –
1. I want more spren interaction. I want Syl, Pattern, Renarin’s spren and Jasnah’s spren to interact. I want to see more on how the spren society reacts with each other.
2. I want the story of Sshsshhh, how Dalinar met her, their interaction as husband and wife, Sshhhssh as a mother to her two young boys and of course as the High Princess of Kholinar. And why does she have blonde hair? She is not Alethi, that’s the only thing I am sure about her.
If Brandon touches on those two, plus of course the story line moving forward, I will be a happy camper. :-)
In chapter 16 of WoR, Kaladin wonders if Adolin’s mother was from Rira, which is north-west from the Purelake if you look at the Roshar map. Dalinar had been to that region when younger (chapter 22 of tWoK) though he calls it Sela Tales, which is the old name for it (Silver Kingdoms epoc). Though just because she might be from Rira and Dalinar has been there it doesn’t mean that they meet in Rira.
Brandon has said that she’ll be in Dalinar’s flashbacks and we’ll find out her name, finally. I wonder what she’ll really be like – Navani seems to think of her as the “nice but dim” type, but just that would be rather boring. Dalinar spent years wooing her so she’s probably no pushover…
@63 – I had completely forgotten about how Renarin might react once it comes out that Adolin murdered Sadeas. He wouldn’t react at all well if Adolin is exiled /punished very harshly. With both Adolin and Shallon in emotional crises Renarin may be shoved into the spotlight.
Jasnah will have a vested interest in what is happening to Shallon and Navani will be crazy happy to find out that Jasnah is alive. Those three may have an interesting combined impact. I can easily see Jasnah as an avenging angel type.
It is my impression from the extra reading on Jasnah that she is not dead because she had just enough stormlight to save herself, but she is trapped at the moment with no current exit in sight.
Based on what I have read in WoB and interviews…
1) Jasnah’s story arc is not supposed to kick-start until book 6. Until then, I would not expect her play a significant role within the main story arc. Oh, I am sure she will be around, but I do not believe she will occupy the POV of a main character until then. I therefore classify any speculation involving her running through her own main story arc as unlikely. Occasional POV character and side character within other characters POV seems more likely for the time being.
2) Szeth likely won’t be taking part into the main story are until book 5. Until then, I would not expect his contribution to the story to exceed what we have so far seen. I thus expect him to remain a recurrent interlude character who may make apparition within the main narrative, though based on his ending in WoR, it seems unlikely for book 3.
3) Book 3 will feature more of Renarin though it is not clear if he is just going to be around more or if he is getting a POV. He also is a character planned for the second arc, which means I don’t expect him either to start having numerous POV, occasional ones perhaps.
4) While it is Dalinar’s book, Brandon said he had to use up 15 (or 18, I don’t remember, in any case many more than intended) chapters for his flashbacks. As a result, he said he would chop of his main narrative to leave room for other characters. I thus do not expect Dalinar’s main story arc to be of similar envergure as Kaladin or Shallan in WoR. He also is a character whom I believe does not require numerous POV to be develop: most of his development will be seen in those flashbacks. His main narrative and his current role does not occur as one needing such a large import of POV.
5) We will read Shshshsh and Dalinar’s background story in the flasbacks. We will learn her name, but it isn’t overly relevant. Brandon does not want to tell us because he wishes for us to read it in book. However, he did say though it was not important (so I would not expect her identity to relevant, she is just a random woman Dalinar met and loved, not some Cosmere-related character). We will read how Dalinar meet her and he’ll be around her much. I certainly hope to get glimpses of the children here and there.
My personal wish list is rather small….
1) I wish for Kaladin’s story to be less central. The first two books were heavily centered on him: I wish for that to change in the next books. I wish for Kaladin’s story to be told from the 3rd person from times to times as opposed to him always being the main POV. I would also prefer if he weren’t the main actor in the final climax. While I don’t personally believe he was this central in WoR climax, I am forced to admit what most readers remember is the fact he fought Szeth… It thus wish for him to have a more… laid-back role? I also do not want him to be imprisoned again.
2) I wish for Adolin to get decent character development and sufficient POV to keep me happy. Sufficient would be at least as much as WoR, preferably more, but I don’t dare to expect it because I can’t shake the conceptual argument from my head. I also wish for him to earn his own story arc, one that wouldn’t act as a foil to Kaladin’s (or anyone else) character development. Therefore, when events happen to him, I want to read them from his POV, not someone else. I also want his arc to get closure: for instance when his fiancee drops to her death, I want to read how he deals with it. When his friends betray him in the most horrible manner, I want to read his after-thoughts and not get the grim impression the plot line only existed to throw Kaladin into prison.
3) I also wish to have more insight on the brother to brother relationship between Adolin and Renarin and I want to read it from both of their POV. So yes, I’d like to have Renarin’s POV. This is tied with point 2.
That’s about it, not much, but a lot at the same time.
@62: I wish other books I have tried reading were as engaging… alas they are not. Ever since I read WoR, I have had a hard time getting into other stories and I always go back to Stormlight.
I should thus focus on the cookies and the pies… I still need to bake those as well.
@66 Gepeto. While your use of the English language can sometimes be unusual, the word “envergure” has me stumped as to what you really meant to say. I will not comment on your tastes in characters or plot development other than to say that such matters are subjective and that my tastes and expectations are quite different. However, I am puzzled that an ostensible fan of Fantasy literature finds it difficult to become engrossed in anything other than the Stormlight series. Again, this may be a subjective matter, but I find no such difficulty, whether it’s books by Sanderson or another leading Fantasy writer. Perhaps it’s because I am relatively new to the genre. I was first introduced to the Lord of the Rings trilogy well into middle age (first the films then the books). Seeing my new interest, a son recommended David Eddings epic, The Belgariad/Mallorean series. I devoured those books and anything by Eddings related to them. Then I was introduced to Sanderson’s Mistborn trilogy which started me on a Sanderson kick. I have since gotten into Martin’s Game of Thrones which I am currently rereading. These authors are all master storytellers who quickly capture the reader’s imagination and interest. Perhaps these other books don’t provide the same opportunity to publicize your thoughts and feelings about the subject matter, but that should be secondary, I would think, to the actual reading experience.
@67: I apologize if my English is not always up to par. Please feel free to correct me: I will never get better otherwise. I know I sometimes pick the wrong words to express myself: I mostly write by ear and sometimes my ears mixes my native language with English, especially when my auto-correct is not available. By “envergure” I meant “as many POV as”. I used the word with reference to Dalinar’s main story arc as WoB left me to believe his contribution to it will not be as large as Shallan in WoR or Kaladin in both books. I may, of course, be wrong. I made sure to specify this was my personal interpretation from various WoB, in this context, the one where Brandon admitted having shorten Dalinar’s main story arc in order to make room for the flashbacks. I was sure the word existed in English… So apologies here.
As for the rest of the comment, yes tastes are subjective. We all have our wish list and mine certainly is different than yours or other readers, which is why I labeled as a “wish list”. I make a clear distinction between what I wish to read and what I expect to read as the two may not align. I believe it is the same for many readers as well. I don’t believe my own wish list is particularly extensive: I want less of one character, more of another and his brother and that’s basically it. In all my browsing on the Internet, I’d say I am not the only one with a similar wish list. There are readers, such as myself who think we have spend enough time with Kaladin already and wish for his contribution to be lessen (considering the fact his inner turmoil is at the heart of two books, it is not such an extraordinary thing to wish for). There are also readers who wish other characters, such as Adolin but not just him (Szeth, Jasnah and Renarin also are names who pop by), get more POV time in the next book. These wishes aren’t out of the box nor completely alien. Whether they will come true or not, I do not know. I’d say I have a 50-50% chance.
As for fantasy readings, I have been reading fantasy since… forever though I was not always aware of all the great books there were out there. I read LoTR as a young teenager and re-read it several times over the years. I am rather fond on this story, but it took me years before I realized there were other books… I then tackled within the worlds of WoT and Harry Potter. I read all of Robin Hobb except her new trilogy. I read GoT before it was even rumored it would be a TV series. I read Rothfuss, Abercrombie (which fell flat for me) and… Goodkind (we can’t be perfect). I gave a try to Ryan (great first book, deceiving sequel) and I am probably forgetting a few. I tried Eddings, but I found it too generic to my tastes. Had I try it in my younger years, I would have probably enjoyed it more. I never read pass the first book. The story just didn’t appeal me. I also read quite a bit of historical fiction as well.
I only got to Sanderson after having read quite a bit of books. I started with Mistborn which I’d labeled as enjoying, good ending, but not always enthralling: some bits weren’t exactly to my tastes. The characters also aren’t as well defined as within his later works, so I can’t say I emotionally connected with any except perhaps TenSoon the kandra which I enjoyed reading.
I’d say some books engage us more than others for reasons which are often obscure. I spent quite a bit of time being engrossed with LoTR (you can easily guess who was my favorite character)… Why the Stormlight Archive? I would say I was mostly drawn in by the characters. I love when stories spend time developing characters, but not many authors manage to do it in a satisfying way. WoK and WoR have left me with a such a feeling of satisfaction I couldn’t help but want more of it. The climax got resolved at the end of the book while I expected it to last for several books. I can never understand the negative critics I sometimes read on Reddit where people accuse WoK and WoR to be slow-paced… He also managed to create a character I can actually emphasize in a way I never managed to with other characters in other works. I also never bothered to publicize my thoughts with other books I have read. I did some with WoT, back in the day where Wotmania was on, but not so much. This is a new experience for me and it is rather… addictive I’d say.
So yes, I have had a hard time finding other pleasant reads since reading WoR, which was 2 years ago. I am currently reading the Codex Alera. I am completed book 3. A pleasant read, I am enjoying it, but it is not drawing me in as deep as Stormlight…. Ah and of course, I’d wish there was more Max… and more Kitai, but I enjoy reading all of the characters even if they all come out of the “I am super resourceful mode”.
@63 Regarding more spren to spren interaction that’s something I thought was a “promise to the readers” early in Words of Radiance and was disappointed not to get it. We should certainly get some in book 3 since we’ll finally have multiple Radiants together.
@61 Regarding the possible effects of the Everstorm, I think it’s going to vary a lot. For example, Highstorms weaken as they cross the continent – the east gets hits far worse than the west – so I would expect the same to happen with the Everstorm but in the opposite direction. Since the west of Roshar is the least prepared for strong winds in general and will face the strongest winds they will likely be hurt much worse. The effects will also vary a lot from location to location even in the same region – places in bowls or valleys or otherwise sheltered on both sides will not be nearly so badly affected as those places that are only provide shelter from storms coming from the east. However, it’s likely that even if the buildings and people are okay that a lot of crops will be ruined so food shortages are likely to be a real issue. I’m not sure if all the Parshmen will transform immediately – I suspect they’d have to close enough to the winds/energy. There might be other nasty effects too – normal Highstorms deposit crem which is good for plants while maybe the Everstorm deposits something bad.
@68 Gepeto. Sorry if I came across as being critical of your use of English. I have long suspected that you were not a native English speaker, and English is a difficult language to write ‘correctly’. My writing ability, such as it is, is based on years of youthful reading of ‘serious’ literature. Imitating experts of the language can enable one to write well even without having mastered the rules of grammar, i.e., if it looks right, it probably is – and vice-versa. You make many understandable grammatical errors but your meaning is clear – except for that mysterious ‘envergure’.
You have also confirmed what I suspected, that you and, I suppose, many others are more familiar with Fantasy literature than I am. My list of such literature that I have read is hardly more than what I had outlined. I should add the Harry Potter series to the list. The attraction for me of what I consider well done fantasy epics is the world building as well as the story telling. Sanderson ranks with the best of such fantasy epic writers that I have read. In truth, however, I was more impressed with the ending of the WOK book than the WOR sequel. I found the latter to be too frenetic and full of surprises for my taste. The fact that Brandon rewrote the climax of the battle between Kaladin and Szeth after it was published strikes me as due to not having clarity on the issue of whether it makes sense to be able to resurrect a person after his soul has been sundered by a shardblade – and by a mysterious fabrial, at that. I look forward to reading the next installment, and hoping that it will avoid such devices.
Gepeto, I’m generally in a similar situation for fantasy novels – I’ve read a huge number since I first got into them a long time ago but lately haven’t found a new story/author that really enthralled me. I’ll go through cycles in terms of how much time I spend discussing stories and sometimes it can be somewhat all-consuming. For most of this year I’ve actually put aside most of my passion for this series (and any work by Brandon) just so that I could have a break – though I did still follow this re-read. It’s good to be able to relax. I might do the same again at the start of next year until we start getting real sample chapters for book 3.
In an earlier post you also wondered how Brandon creates and develops his characters. What he often does is use a “casting” method – either taking a previously created character that’s never been used and trialling that or creating a fresh character and then write a load of scenes from that character’s point of view (discovery writing style) to see how well they fit. If the character fits then he’ll carry on using them. If the character doesn’t work at all or works well but not at all with the planned story then he’ll try again with a new character. He also prefers to adjust the story/plot to the character than the other way around to try to keep the characters fresh and natural – eg with Shallan’s development in Words of Radiance he realised he had to separate her from Jasnah so that she would grow naturally.
For the overall plot he does it goal-based – with particular scenes/events in mind for the ending (or future books) and then develops the plot and characters towards that.
@70: It is no secrecy I am not a native English speaker: I have mentioned it a few times. My mastering of the English language sprout from years and years of reading, mostly fantasy I’ll admit and years and years trying to interfaced appropriately with English speaking individuals via the Internet, albeit painstakingly at first. My own “official” lessons in the matter mostly dealt with “speaking” and whatever little grammatical lessons I ever had were so sparse and so long ago I fear I may not have retained much. None of my teachers saw fit to supplement their teachings with intensive readings, though admittedly I would not have been to perform such a task at the time. I was pass 18 years of age when I successfully managed to read my first English book, thank you Star Wars (I know, I know… I should have probably mentioned the Star Wars extended universe as well).
As a result, whatever feeling I get as to “what sounds right” is directly linked to books I have read and my own brain which managed to grasp some of it through osmosis. I would definitely benefit from writing English lessons (providing I had the time for those), but those tend to be aimed towards non-English speakers and those oriented towards developing writing skills are typical made for the corporate world (boring).
Most of the grammatical mistakes I know I do make are linked to verb tenses, not because I don’t know how to use them, but because they all sound the same in my head, hence when I write, I often use the bad ending. Also, the difference between a “t” and a “d” or the “ed” is difficult for me to hear, hence the fact I keep making those mistakes. I probably misuse all verb tenses related to past/present perfect tenses and conditional sentencing as these have rules of their own.
“Envergure” is not, as it appears, an English word… but I would translate it as “of grand majestic importance”. It would have made sense, had the word existed. I wanted to emphasis my personal thoughts concerning Dalinar’s main story which I suspect won’t be as grand as Kaladin or Shallan in their respective book. This was it.
As for books, I have also read several popular YA sometimes with pleasure, sometimes with gritting teeth. I have tried the greater beasts such as Malazan and Tiguana, but I couldn’t bring myself to move forward: I’ll try again, in a few years. Mister Sanderson, as it appears, is one of the rare author who can appeal at a large variety of readers. Some, such as yourself, enjoy the world-building, the Cosmere, the magic system while others, such as myself, enjoy the character writing and the satisfaction to see them evolve and stumble. The pleasure to read characters who aren’t perfect without being grim dark (a very important distinction). So we each find our interest which is why, I suspect, the books are so popular. For instance, while Malazan is a highly thought of and respected series, it also is renown to push people away: reading it is considered difficult, but rewarding. I wouldn’t use those terms to qualify the Stormlight Archive who is definitely more mainstream.
It also explains why I tend to talk mostly about characters and little about anything else, mostly because I don’t care so much for the technical aspects. I am annoyed at the tweak at the end of WoR, but for different reasons than you.
@71: That’s interesting… I knew Brandon was a planner and I had wondered how much of that plan was flexible. I figured major events are quite fix in time, but I had wondered about lesser events such as shipping and character contribution to the overall story line.
@72: Heh, I learnt Japanese in a similar way, at a similar point in my life, for similar reasons… though I mostly just read/listen to it (manga, novels, anime) rather than write/speak it. You may well be doing this already but I would suggest the following: where possible for video, go out of your way to watch it in the original English dubbing and with your native language in subtitles, paying attention to both. It takes some practice to listen to one language while reading another but I’ve found it to be a very useful (and efficient) way to learn long-term.
Regarding Brandon’s methods: according to him it’s generally considered that authors who are outliners have better plots/endings and authors who are discovery writers have better characters so he eventually developed a hybrid approach where for the setting he heavily outlines, for the characters he discovery writes and for the plot he uses a goal orientated approach. I believe he also uses a goal based approach for character development and also character relationship development – and like with plots he will revise character goals as he actually writes the book.
I’ve not seen him talk much about writing a book series though – mostly he’s talking about how to write a single book. From what I remember for a book series (or short stories vs full novels) he suggests using the same sort of methods, just at a different scale – eg having plot and character goals for the series and then breaking that down into plot and character goals for the specific book in the series that’s currently being written. I think he’s said before that for the second half of the Stormlight Achieve (books 6-10) he only has a brief outline for each book – a few lines covering the major plot/ending point(s). I think he said he has much more in-depth outlines for books 3-5. I suspect it’s similar for character goals though I don’t remember him talking about that specifically for the Stormlight Achieve.
To give a specific example, I think it’s very likely that he planned for Shallan and Adolin to have a romantic relationship before he seriously started writing book 2, though I’ve no idea when he started planning it. Likewise, I’d say it’s likely that he planned to have Adolin kill Sadeas at the end of book 2 before he started writing the book. I seem to remember him saying that he wrote a more in-depth outline for book 2 while still doing the revisions for book 1 and added various bits of foreshadowing to book 1 based on that book 2 outline.
Have you read any of his annotations? If not, I think you’ll enjoy it or at least get a better idea of the sorts of things he considers during the writing process. I’ve read them all already though I’m still looking forwards to Alice’s Warbreaker re-read using the annotations.
I like watching DVDs in English with English subtitles. That way you can also learn spelling.
Is envergure French? I looked it up in a French dictionary because it sounded like a Romanic language, and the translation is size (or rather the German equivalent, since I used a French-German dictionary), that fits with your explanation.
@73: I have been watching English movies and English TV series since my early teens, albeit with limited understanding at first. Thank you Will Smith for helping me get a better grasp of English, that song was sure hard to comprehend. I try not to put the subtitles unless I struggle with the accents or if I am ironing clothes as this iron can get noisy. I don’t need my native language subtitles to understand movies though, I generally put the English ones if I need it.
I have always figured killing Sadeas may have been one of those scenes he tried with different characters until he settled with Adolin…Perhaps he had it planned, though I somehow doubt it was part in his planning when he initially wrote WoK. I could be wrong though, but he did say Adolin was one character he thought worked well even though he didn’t intend to write him at first. It is quite interesting to hear more of Brandon’s writing skills.
I have never read his annotations… Where do I find them?
@74: Yes, it is French. I tend to be flowery when I write: too many words at a time, too strong words. A bad habit.
@75 Gepeto – the annotations are on his website: http://www.brandonsanderson.com. All you need to do is click on the “Library” link on the top of the page, and then scroll down – he has separate links to each book he has written that he has done annotations for. So far, he’s done them for Warbreaker, Elantris, The Original Mistborn trilogy plus Alloy of Law, Alcatraz and Defending Elysium. They really give an interesting insight to his thinking process for each chapter, as well as specific events/characters.
@75 Looking at WoK and how strongly Adolin was itching to fight Sadeas from the very beginning, I think Brandon either had it in mind or added that as foreshadowing in a later revision once he’d made a plan for WoR (if my recollection is correct that he did a more in-depth plan for WoR during this time). Just because Adolin was added pretty late I very much doubt Brandon would skimp on coming up with character arcs, background etc from him. He really doesn’t skimp at all… and it shows.
Since we’re already discussing Warbreaker annotations, here’s one that covers (amongst other things), Mab the cook (no real spoilers on this page):
http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-one-part-2/
I’m sure Adolin had vastly more background prepared before WoK was published (I’m being a bit vague here since trying not to indirectly spoil Warbreaker).
@76: Thanks, I’ll check it up.
@77: I recalled reading Brandon mentioning he sometimes write a same scene with different characters just to see which feels best. He also said he sometimes think of a given scene for a given character only to realize upon writing it it does not work. I had wondered of killing Sadeas was such as scene.
As for Adolin’s background, I noticed a few details in between the books which tell me he likely was not as fleshed out at the time of WoK. For instances, details such as his Blade being nameless (in WoK we all assumed he got it from his mother), his nervous tic involving his Blade (when Dalinar tries to abduct in favor of him, Adolin is rather nervous an unsettled, but he does not rely on his tic while he does in similar circumstances in WoR), his ritual before dueling (in WoK, all we got was him drinking yellow wine right before), mother’s necklace (in WoK we have him being happy at seeing Navani and Dalinar commenting on how his son liked to be a child again whenever around her). We got his thoughts on his courtships, his desire to make it work, his inability to make friends, his trouble with emotional management, but all of these got more round up in WoR, more defined, more… real. In WoK, he was the draft of a character. In WoR, he became one.
I definitely got the feeling he didn’t re-invent the wheel in WoR for Adolin, but he used whatever he had written and used it to defined a more complete character. Brandon once said he first created the orders and then try to fit the characters within and not the opposite. I wonder if he knows if Adolin will become a Radiant or if he is waiting to see how the character will evolve…
Dear Gepto, the English language is a mongrel whose breeding has always been suspect. A number of words we use were made up by Shakespear when he needed a new word. The internet, and its teaming horde of typing monkeys, has added many more to our dictionaries. We steal words from other languages and then forget how to pronounce them or use them properly but insist on keeping the spelling they came with when it makes no sense to our English rules.
I admire all of you who speak more languages than my single, born to it, accomplishment. I just thank heaven that Brandon didn’t create an entirely new language, like Klingon, that would have to be used in our book discussions.
@Gepeto
I could not resist making a recommendation when you wrote that other books were not grabbing you. When you finish Codex, you should try the Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold.
If you have not read it you should know it is science fiction, but is hugely character driven. I prefer internal chronological order (and publication order if it doesnt mess with the story). The 1st book is Shards of Honor (Cordelia), 2nd Barrayar (Cordelia), and 3rd The Warrior’s Apprentice (Miles). The 3rd and most of the rest of the series is about Cordelia’s son Miles (the 1st two are about Cordelia). The point is you can start with book 1 or book 3, but if you have never read Vorkosigan please read 3 before you decide whether to continue reading or not. Miles is what makes the books great, imo.
Main character/POV character/flashbacks are not the same thing obviously :-).
The book 1 = Kaladin, book 2=Shallan, book 3= Dalinar etc deals with flashbacks and with flashbacks only, if I understand WoB correctly. I believe he chooses POV based on ‘what the story needs ‘ with the explicit goal to limit the amount of POVs (no WOT bloat of POVs ;-). Who is a “main character” is up to the reader, I believe.
So, Adolin gets no flashbacks but multiple POVs. Lift has only 1 POV in book 1-2 but will get flashbacks. Etc.
Just wanted to clarify that ;-)
Just to point out: Vin-Elend is actually more of a positive towards a Shallan-Adolin ship than a negative. Elend was never intended to be a significant character, but his role was expanded in large part because of how well Brandon thought he worked with Vin.
So we have empirical proof that Brandon will in fact take a character that was not originally intended to be a main character and actively expand his role in order to make a good romantic interest for a main character. I don’t think Adolin’s original arc has much bearing – if any at all – in what will end up occurring.
That said, of course, Shallan could end up with Kaladin or someone else instead, and I don’t really share the aversion to that idea that many seem to (not that I’m shipping that pairing though – I honestly don’t care who she ends up with. I don’t feel like the romantic arcs are very important to the story being told here.).
@82: Brandon has explicitly stated he will not make Adolin a main character which may or may not influence the shipping discussion, I frankly have no idea, but he isn’t ever going to be more than a supporting character. I guess it isn’t entirely impossible the author would change his mind at a later time, but as of day, such are his plans.
@83 Gepeto: But being a not-main-character thus far has not seemed to hamper his involvement in the story in the least. Why should we assume that him never receiving flashbacks, and never being a “main character” would necessarily require a decrease in his involvement?
At this point, all options are open to us. Even if Adolin’s involvement never increases, but stays the same as it is now, that’s still a pretty good place to be in.
@84: I guess it simply means his involvement in the story isn’t secure and more importantly it means the core of the story has been drafted without him being in it. What role can he hope to fill other than foil considering he isn’t considered as one of the major viewpoints by the author?
It also means when more important, but currently very minor, characters such as Szeth and Eshonai will come into prominence, Adolin will likely loose his current place. He is probably always going to come after Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, so if someone is moving above him, he is automatically moving down.
The problem with Adolin’s actual arcs is they aren’t accumulating into valid climax for his character development: they all end up serving other characters development. From a character reading’s perspective, it makes for unsatisfying arcs. I’ll be satisfied with Adolin’s place in the story on the day he will earn his own arc with his own climax tied to his own character growth. I am unsure if it will happen.
Reading the series for the first time, this reread series really helps in better understanding some of the depth that I might have missed, and helps inform some details (like the heralds in the chapter headers, for one) that I’ve been wondering about.
Iyatil is utterly fascinating, doubly so after (SPOILER) reading The Bands of Mourning and learning about the masked peoples that she no doubt comes from.